Sigh. They were so much fun, weren't they?Originally Posted by Bren
Ever have a look at "A Distant Mirror" by Barbara Tuchman?
Sigh. They were so much fun, weren't they?
Ever have a look at "A Distant Mirror" by Barbara Tuchman?
By the by, for whomever posted on Another Forum about my comments on the original PRESTAGS games looking a whole lot like Middle Earth: You might want to pass along the information that the maps I was looking at back in 1974, were the ones I was talking about. Ditto on the counter sets, too.
People played a whole lot faster and looser with IP and copyright back in those days, which was my point. See also Don Wohlheim and the 'unauthorized' paperback editions of "The Hobbit" and LotR, the open scandal about Minifigs UK's figures being produced in the US without permission, some of the army lists in "Hordes of the Things", some of the entries in "Gods, Demigods, and Heroes", 'ents' and 'hobbits', or a game called "Warriors of Mars".
One hopes that folks have gotten a little better about these things, one does. I've got stuff in my files from Ye Olden Dayes that would make your hair curl - if not burn it right off...
Great book. I still remember the de Coucy family. The lordship was bought by the Valois in 1400 so every now and then the Coucy name pops up in my research for 1620s France.Sigh. They were so much fun, weren't they?
Ever have a look at "A Distant Mirror" by Barbara Tuchman?
Currently playing: WEG Star Wars D6
My Blog: For Honor...and Intrigue
Gronan now owes me 7 beers and I owe him 1 beer.
In one wargame campaign my leader was Enguerrand VIII de Coucy.
Roi ne suis,
Ne prince ne duc ne comte aussi.
Je suis le sire de Coucy.
I don't care if you respect me, just buy my fucking book.
Formerly known as Old Geezer
I don't need an Ignore List, I need a Tongue My Pee Hole list.
The rules can't cure stupid, and the rules can't cure asshole.
Much as I'd love to see some of that, let's (all) think about the context first.By the by, for whomever posted on Another Forum about my comments on the original PRESTAGS games looking a whole lot like Middle Earth: You might want to pass along the information that the maps I was looking at back in 1974, were the ones I was talking about. Ditto on the counter sets, too.
People played a whole lot faster and looser with IP and copyright back in those days, which was my point. See also Don Wohlheim and the 'unauthorized' paperback editions of "The Hobbit" and LotR, the open scandal about Minifigs UK's figures being produced in the US without permission, some of the army lists in "Hordes of the Things", some of the entries in "Gods, Demigods, and Heroes", 'ents' and 'hobbits', or a game called "Warriors of Mars".
One hopes that folks have gotten a little better about these things, one does. I've got stuff in my files from Ye Olden Dayes that would make your hair curl - if not burn it right off...
Let's set the WAYBAC machine to the mid 1950s. Lionel Trains is in its glory. However, they don't pay royalties to any railroads. In fact, the railroads happily send Lionel paint chips, lettering diagrams, and striping charts so they get it all right. Because every bright shiny red and silver Lionel "Santa Fe" F-unit is a living, breathing ad for the Santa Fe, and don't you forget it.
And nobody said "Boy Lionel sure is ripping the Santa Fe off and getting rich." People frankly didn't think like that.
A few years later we get Star Trek fandom. Though SF fandom and fan fiction had been around for years, Star Trek in the late 60s and early 70s turned the trickle into a deluge. Every Star Trek con had heaps of mimeoed Star Trek fan fiction magazines for sale, usually for cost plus a dribble extra. And Gene Roddenberry looked upon it and saw that it was good, because he knew that the only bad publicity is no publicity.
Meanwhile in the wargaming world. (NB - by "wargaming" I mean "miniatures wargaming" but that's too much to type every time). The wargaming hobby had, frankly, no money in it. The fact that Don Lowry wanted to hire Gary Gygax to work for Guidon Games means that Guidon was one of the Movers and Shakers of the World. Most wargame "companies" were more like Jack Scruby, who used the income from his day job to help keep his wargame magazine and his wargame miniatures line going. (Sounds familiar, doesn't it...) This was a hobby of garage manufacturers. By Rob Kuntz's recollection, which is usually pretty darn good, the first edition of CHAINMAIL was 200 copies. At $2 each that's a GROSS revenue of $400, BEFORE we pay the printer or give any dealer discounts. Woo hoo. Even in 1970 that's not much.
And since wargaming became a hobby instead of a training for military officers, wargamers had been writing rules based on what was handy.
H.G. Wells wrote Little Wars using Britains figures and guns. And he, nor anyone else, thought about writing for Britians for permission.
Fletcher Pratt wrote a set of naval wargame rules for warship models available at the time, and nobody ever thought about asking the model makers for permission.
When plastic model WWI airplanes became available, Mike Carr wrote "Fight in the Skies," and nobody ever suggested he should have written to Hawk or Monogram or Aurora.
When Roco started making 1/87 size tanks Mike Reese wrote "Tractics" and nobody ever thought he should ask permission of Roco (or Krupp, for that matter.)
So in 1972, Lou Zocchi published the "Star Trek Battle Manual," because the AMT models were available and Star Trek fan fiction was popular. But we wargamers didn't want to write, or read, stories about Captain Kirk falling in love with Lieutenant Mary Sue. We wanted to protect the Federation from the perfidious Klingoni menace.
Because, you see, wargame rules are fan fiction for wargamers.
I'll say that again. Wargame rules are fan fiction for wargamers.
The "Star Trek Battle Manual" is Star Trek fan fiction for wargamers.
TRACTICS is WW2 tank combat fan fiction for wargamers.
Fight in the Skies is WW1 airplane combat fan fiction for wargamers.
And the Uruks, Ents, Balrogs, and Hobbits of the CHAINMAIL fantasy supplement are Tolkien fan fiction for wargamers.
And "Warriors of Mars" is Barsoom fan fiction for wargamers.
To us at the time they looked no different.
And because there was no money in it, these games might have stayed under the radar and unnoticed. But then along came D&D.
In January 1974 D&D came out. Sales only 2 years later... 1976... were some $300,000. This was an explosion. Not only that, but at Origins 1976 the D&D tournament had 250 entrants -- a full order of magnitude greater than any other game. When most events had 15 to 20 participants, 250 for one game was phenomenal. In the 2 1/2 years from launch to Summer 1976, D&D went from unknown to dominating the wargame world.
Naturally, it attracted attention... but not all of it good. Once D&D began to get known, we know what happened next.
In a way, it's kind of sad; the hobby-driven, fanfic-for-wargamers days were a lot of fun in some ways, and it certainly was a much more innocent time.
I've got a chapter on this in my upcoming book, of course. I think my ending sentence for that chapter works here too, referring to the aftermath of that Origins and the Burroughs and Tolkien C&D orders:
"The First Age had ended."
I don't care if you respect me, just buy my fucking book.
Formerly known as Old Geezer
I don't need an Ignore List, I need a Tongue My Pee Hole list.
The rules can't cure stupid, and the rules can't cure asshole.
I'll hope you won't mind that I snipped your superb post; I agree with you, wholeheartedly.
Once we stopped saying 'the game hobby' and started saying 'the game industry', I think we lost something. I don't know how many times in the past decade I've been approached by people who think there's a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow - and that the key to getting this pot of gold is what's in my poor old brain. I had one set of 'real friends' who it took me about a grand in legal fees to get rid of, and I'm sure that there will be more in the coming years.
"To Serve The Petal Throne" has become, for an amazing number of 'entrepreneur wannabes', The Holy Grail Of Gaming - if only they could get control of it, they'll make huge piles of money!!! Just sign here, on this piece of paper, and we'll let you know what happens!!! And we'll be happy to take your collections, too!!! We just want to be your very bestest and goodest friend!
There's a reason why we have double-faced deadbolt locks on the doors and an alarm system, and I no longer encourage visitors ever since I became 'a collectable'...
Sigh. Enough of this, if we may; this has gotten depressing. Can we get back to talking about Tekumel, please? Questions from the floor?
Last edited by chirine ba kal; 09-04-2015 at 03:44 AM. Reason: clarification
Had a 'Phil moment', tonight at work; we had a night football game, with something like 42,000 people in the stadium for the game. All these folks have to park somewhere, and a lot of them have really elaborate set-ups for what are called hereabouts 'tailgating' parties.
Originally, this was setting up a grill and having what was more of a picnic off the back of the station wagon. Things have gotten a lot more elaborate, over time; we have a regular who's modified an ambulance with fold-up sides that provide a huge canopy and reveal a huge LCD screen set in the side of the body; there's a generator to provide power for this as well as the lights, fridge, and stove. RV users have done this as well, but the larger body provides space for a shower and bedrooms, creating a hotel in the parking lot.
My personal 'most favorite' is the guy who had a custom-made 'field kitchen' trailer built for him; he has a grill, a sink, and a toaster for the buns as well as a complete short-order grilling set. And all in chromed steel, too!
So, anyway, one of our larger parking lots is about four to five acres in size, and tonight you could not see the asphalt for the tents. I just had to stop and take photos - most all of the tents are in the University's maroon and gold, most of the people are in the same colors in T-shirts and jerseys, and there are lots and lots of flag poles with maroon and gold banners. People were cooking their meals, drinking happily, and there was the drumming and trumpeting from the marching band going on in the background.
I looked at this vast sea of people and tents and noise and aromas, and thought, "Why, there's the Glorious General's legion all set for the night!" And there it was; one of Phil's marvelous word pictures of something we had run into - which you just knew he was taking from life, from his time in Asia.
I knew what he'd say, looking at the incredible scene - he'd try to be casual, roll his eyes, and say "Oh, you Americans!" And I think he'd be amused, looking it all over, and he'd use it the next time you and I and the rest of the group marched up country to do a little smiting for the Tsolyani Imperium, Glorious General...
Last edited by chirine ba kal; 09-04-2015 at 03:47 AM. Reason: clarification
...really?
If that was the intention, it was a miserable failure, is all I'm going to say.
Point conceded, I've never been to Middle America. That's exactly why I feel uncomfortable either agreeing or disagreeing with your assessment, though: I simply can neither confirm nor deny.You haven't been to Middle America, have you?
Well, I admit that surprises me. Most of the players I know simply refuse to invest any time in an Internet discussion. Those that do read stuff on RPG forums are the exception, not the rule.Um, I get quite a few e-mails from people who do pay attention to what's being said on the Internet, and how they perceive the discussions. It may very well be atypical, but it does happen, at least in my experience.
Of course, my experience is purely empirical, and probably based on too small a sample size. I'll admit that it does happen, obviously. I just don't know many people that do it, but that might be due to selection bias.
"The circle is now complete. When I left you, I was but the learner; now I am the master."The OSR. are my betters; just ask them.
Something like this?
Well, "generation" was shorter than saying "both you and Gronan, and the other people that started playing with Gygax, Arneson and MARB". It's simply due to the observation that older games did indeed have less rules.I'm not sure about the 'generation' in your comment. I personally prefer fewer rules, myself, but that's me. I don't think I can speak for my generation of gamers; besides, most of them are dead.
I'm now curious what you'd think of some of the modern ORE games. Here's the shortest free one I've found, and it's for Star Wars.
...I'm reminded of a kung-fu story about an obsessive student.I'm sorry; I messed up, last night, and didn't answer this for you.
No, the guy insisted that he had to know the colors of Dave Arneson's plaid shirt so he could get one for himself, and then wear it while he was running his games "so that he could get it right."
I pointed out that Dave's play style had nothing to do with what he wore while gaming, and the guy was incensed about this; he insisted that a reallly serious gamer would get everything right, including the proper attire for the GM.
"Well, ok," I said, "but that's not was important to Dave's play style. You should look at his interests in reading and films, as that would give you a better handle on what he was thinking..."
Not an acceptable answer, I was told, and that was the last of that conversation.
Again, sorry about missing this last night...
There was a would-be student of kung-fu (yes, kung-fu isn't the right term, and it was cing yi quan to begin with, but let's skip that) who didn't dare to ask his teacher to teach him, so he became his servant instead. Then he proceeded to copy the master's way of moving and practiced that.
At some point the master noticed he's moving too lightly and asked him if he knows kung-fu, and he admitted he doesn't know a single move, but has copied his everyday movements. By all accounts, he was a diligent servant, too.
The master was amazed by his diligence and he got admitted as a student.
In my book, that wasn't a smart move, but he was at least learning how to move. So it was something, at least.
Still, it was a better attempt than attempting to copy another GM's attire. But, well, whatever works for people...or in this case, whatever doesn't work for them, but makes them feel better!
If someone wanted to get into Tekumel, perhaps just to read for interest, or to use as a setting for a game, or to borrow from and be inspired by for a game, where would you advise they start?
This thread has been fascinating for me.
I know you've talked a bit about miniatures. My own preference has slowly shifted towards 54mm. Whether it's plastic, home cast or traditional toy soldiers. I got sucked into Napoleonics and at 54mm getting two armies painted and done is going to take a long time unless I really crank the figure ratio:
Spoiler:
Do you primarily deal with 25mm metals?
It was not until 1876 that General Julius von Verdy du Vernois had the idea of placing more power in the hands of the gamemaster in order to speed up the game and reduce the number of rules."
--“Free” Kriegsspiel on Wikipedia
I looked at this vast sea of people and tents and noise and aromas, and thought, "Why, there's the Glorious General's legion all set for the night!" And there it was; one of Phil's marvelous word pictures of something we had run into - which you just knew he was taking from life, from his time in Asia.
I knew what he'd say, looking at the incredible scene - he'd try to be casual, roll his eyes, and say "Oh, you Americans!" And I think he'd be amused, looking it all over, and he'd use it the next time you and I and the rest of the group marched up country to do a little smiting for the Tsolyani Imperium, Glorious General...
To quote Asterix and Cleopatra,
"Boom! Zing! Tantantara!"
I don't care if you respect me, just buy my fucking book.
Formerly known as Old Geezer
I don't need an Ignore List, I need a Tongue My Pee Hole list.
The rules can't cure stupid, and the rules can't cure asshole.
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