Thread: Questioning chirine ba kal

Originally Posted by AsenRG

"Apart from specific mechanics, what did the latest 3 editions of D&D dropped that you were using, and what did they add?"

Well, I haven't looked carefully at AD&D 1st edition carefully in over 25 years; I've never looked at 2nd edition; I played some Star Wars d20 which I'm told is similar to 3rd edition, and I found the rules horribly restrictive and excessively complicated; likewise for Pathfinder; I spent 10 minutes looking at the free startup 4th Ed and decided "too fucking many rules"; and I've never glanced at 5th ed.

SO I have no idea except by "reconnaissance by fire," based on what those who play it say.

Sometime in there the idea of, to quote Skip Williams, "rules to protect the players from the arbitrary whims of the referee" became popular, at which moment OD&D as I understand it died.

Also, I'm sad that ol' Fightin' Bob has let the staff at the Source go to crap like that. He used to rule with a rod of iron.

"He was a cruel man, but fair."

Originally Posted by Greentongue

Well, for what it is worth, it is helpful and builds confidence to know my vision is not completely off from the way the game was originally played.

I don't know if you have seen or recall the movie "Multiplicity" but I worry of getting to be a copy of a copy.

Now I do know that it is not a "Big Deal" if I make it my own but when I say I'm playing "EPT" then I want to make sure that I am.
If I'm creating a game Ad-hoc then I should say it is a Homebrew setting loosely based on EPT instead.

Again, not THE END OF THE WORLD but, when taking a tour down memory lane, I want to be sure I'm on the right road.

Oh, and when's the book going to be available??
=

Sure, and I understand that. The kind of questions that you and the other folks on this thread are asking are in line with this - you're asking about the philosophy and play style that Phil used in the early days, and not what color his white T-shirts were. (Full of burn holes, actually.) These are great questions, and I really enjoy trying to answer them for you.

It's my way of encouraging people to give Phil's creation a whirl. Sure, it's not going to be everyone's cup of tea, and I understand that. What gets me is that the Tekumel that Phil played with us is a lot more in line with the kind of games you and the other posters here have been talking about - more open, more inclusive, and more 'rip-snorting action-adventure-romance' then the current mythology tends to seem to accept.

Language classes at game conventions? I laughed myself silly when I heard about this one...

Anybody can run Tekumel. Younger folks, who are across the 'digital divide' from us old farts, are very good at it; they have a lot more exposure to diverse cultures and peoples that we did, back in the day, and for most - like the 'young' players I have had and still have - Tekumel is a lot more accessible then it was for us.

If you want to understand what we experienced, have a look at Phil's favorites:

The Barsoom series; "Sign of the Cross" by DeMille; both versions of "Thief of Baghdad"; Lovecraft; Howard; Leiber; the "Flash Gordon" serials - and the movie, which Phil loved to see but hated the dialog.

As for "To Serve The Petal Throne"? When it's finished, about the turn of the year. I have about 210,000 words to go, but I am steaming along nicely.

Originally Posted by Gronan of Simmerya

Well, I haven't looked carefully at AD&D 1st edition carefully in over 25 years; I've never looked at 2nd edition; I played some Star Wars d20 which I'm told is similar to 3rd edition, and I found the rules horribly restrictive and excessively complicated; likewise for Pathfinder; I spent 10 minutes looking at the free startup 4th Ed and decided "too fucking many rules"; and I've never glanced at 5th ed.

SO I have no idea except by "reconnaissance by fire," based on what those who play it say.

Sometime in there the idea of, to quote Skip Williams, "rules to protect the players from the arbitrary whims of the referee" became popular, at which moment OD&D as I understand it died.

Yep, same here. What with my excessive reading speed, I can read a complete set of rules as I'm standing in the FLGS by the shelf. I've looked at most all of the modern generations of RPG rules as they've come out, and they go right back on the shelf. No sale. As the man says, too many rules.

Yep, I'd agree with the quote, too, and something in me died when I read it.

If you need me, I'll be with the other elderly elephants...

Originally Posted by Gronan of Simmerya

Also, I'm sad that ol' Fightin' Bob has let the staff at the Source go to crap like that. He used to rule with a rod of iron.

"He was a cruel man, but fair."

I'd agree with that. The problem has been that as the shop has become the Big Box Superstore of gaming in the Upper Midwest, Bob (Kerdu Karim Missum in Phil's original group, by the way) has been getting stretched thinner and thinner. He can't be everywhere at once, and he's had a difficult time keeping track of what the staff is up to.

There are fewer and fewer 'gamers' working there, and more and more 'comics people' for whom gaming and gaming products are an unwelcome nuisance. The store is divided up into about 60% comics and comics collectables, about 15% board games (the 'Euro-games' genre, mostly), and the rest for 'traditional gaming products'. Of that 25%, about 20% is RPGs, about 10% for the two most popular lines of miniatiures (Warhammer, Warmachine, and the Reaper lines), and the last 5% for all other miniatures genres combined.

Comics, not gaming, is what keeps the doors open and the payroll met they tell me.

I try to get in there once a month to see what's happening, but I very rarely find anything I can use in my games, either RPGs or miniatures. (The little laser-cut boats were a huge exception, and very, very useful.) Haven't been in over six months, at this point...

Originally Posted by Greentongue

Somewhat related to "dealing with the staff"...
I assume that the staff in the clan house is almost all clan members with some slaves to do the really nasty jobs nobody wants to do?

Also, when the players go gallivanting off on some attractive side quest instead of Doing Their Duty, what are the repercussions?
Just more crap jobs, reprimands, hands slapped?
What do you think is the worst that could happen?
(Which may actually be what they are asking."

I would assume that bringing back Fame and Fortune to the clan would go a LONG way to having their indiscretion/misbehavior overlooked.
=

Yes, I'd say that that is pretty accurate to the way Phil portrayed things. The clan will find jobs for the less well-off members, doing all the 'internal' stuff that keeps the place running; there are not what I'd call 'contract workers' available to do these kinds of things. If a particular specialist was needed, say a really skilled pastry cook for a party, if the clan didn't have such a person available then they'd go to one of the specialist clans that they had a relationship with.

Slaves, as you surmise, tend to get the really unpopular jobs, although a really valued slave might be one of the 'upper staff'; still a slave, and thus of very low status, but they might have a 'good' job. Not all that common, from what we used to see in the campaign.

Errant clanspeople will get all the sanctions that you mention for not getting the job done; the clan also has the ultimate sanction of volunteering the wayward clan member for something terribly heroic and noble, like service with a legion that the clan supports - this will either reform the miscreant, or get them killed. Either way, problem solved for the clan.

However, you are correct re the final product; a certain amount of gallivanting around is expected from the adventurers, as they are assumed to be always looking for a little 'something on the side' for themselves and the clan. As long as they work at getting the main job done, and - as you say - bring home benefits to the clan, there's a lot of tolerance for adventuring.

A big part of that is the sheer danger of adventuring; you are literally risking your life by doing it, and so the clan elders tend to be a little more tolerant of any 'side trips' that you take; it's your skin you're risking, after all!

Originally Posted by Greentongue

How would a powerful clan put pressure on a lower clan?
To hush them up for example.

What about two of about equal power?

Is it common that a clan would use their connections to call on a higher clan to apply pressure on a competitor?
How would that work?
What type of favors would need to be done to repay?
=

Persuasion, bribery, economic boycott, social ostracism, maybe a little political pressure. Outright violence is very rare, as the Imperium (and other governments) doesn't like it for public order reasons.

About the same, for two 'equal' clans.

Yes. 'Patronage' is a very big thing, and if my clan tried to lean too hard on your clan, there's a pretty good chance that your clan would go to Gronan's - with which you have been allied for centuries - to ask them to lean on mine.

Maybe a little cash (which is not the usual thing), help with a project, patronage, political support, maybe a strategic marriage, products that the patron might need, stalwart player-characters to go on an adventure. Lots of possibilities.

"You scratch my back, I'll scratch yours."