Thread: Questioning chirine ba kal

The OSR, or parts of it, are a rather odd duck.

Firstly, there is one bunch that is dissecting the texts almost letter by letter trying to extract the "true meaning." It would be funny if it weren't sad; it's rather like a bunch of third rate Talmudic scholars trying to exegete while stoned out of their minds.

Another bunch is trying to "capture the original experience" by taking those same texts and searching for some sort of ur-game.

When I point this out, I have sometimes been lambasted by people saying "not all of us had the games authors to play with you big meanie poo poo head!"

But then I point out that though Dave, Gary, and Phil may have passed, Greg Swenson is still alive and has an online presence, Bill Hoyt is still alive and has an online presence, Dave Megarry is still alive and has an online presence, Dave Wesley is still alive and has an online presence, Rob Kuntz is still alive and has an online presence, Terry Kuntz is still alive and has an online presence, Tim Kask is still alive and has an online presence, Jim Ward is still alive and has an online presence.

So if they want to know what they early days of the game were like, THEY ONLY HAVE TO ASK THE PEOPLE WHO WERE THERE.

I guess I'm just Unmutual, Number 2.

Originally Posted by Hrugga

Excellent. Mine too.

H ;0)

Well, there you go; you're probably better at Tekumel then I am, then, as I've never had the chance to go to that part of our world...

Originally Posted by Gronan of Simmerya

The OSR, or parts of it, are a rather odd duck.

Firstly, there is one bunch that is dissecting the texts almost letter by letter trying to extract the "true meaning." It would be funny if it weren't sad; it's rather like a bunch of third rate Talmudic scholars trying to exegete while stoned out of their minds.

Another bunch is trying to "capture the original experience" by taking those same texts and searching for some sort of ur-game.

When I point this out, I have sometimes been lambasted by people saying "not all of us had the games authors to play with you big meanie poo poo head!"

But then I point out that though Dave, Gary, and Phil may have passed, Greg Swenson is still alive and has an online presence, Bill Hoyt is still alive and has an online presence, Dave Megarry is still alive and has an online presence, Dave Wesley is still alive and has an online presence, Rob Kuntz is still alive and has an online presence, Terry Kuntz is still alive and has an online presence, Tim Kask is still alive and has an online presence, Jim Ward is still alive and has an online presence.

So if they want to know what they early days of the game were like, THEY ONLY HAVE TO ASK THE PEOPLE WHO WERE THERE.

I guess I'm just Unmutual, Number 2.

You big meanie poo-poo head, you!!! All of those people you mention are not part of the OSR - or so I am told by some of the OSR's greatest acolytes - and thus are not qualified to speak to the issue of what is and is not RightGoodFun RPG games.

I do agree with you; what astonished me about Gary Con last year was seeing just how much the players we had in the RPG event enjoyed their time with us. All we did was our usual style of gaming, just like we used to do at Coffman, and they seemed to love it. I got the real distinct impression from what I saw on-line after the convention that it was a non-event for the on-line members of the OSR - none of the 'usual suspects' went and played, it seemed to me, because the convention was not 'an OSR event' with little or no OSR gaming.

I still find it amazing that I get asked "Why don't you play a set of OSR rules?" when I mention EPT; I had thought that OD&D and EPT (amongst other games of the same vintage) might be included in the OSR's purview, but I have been told repeatedly that I am wrong. All of those 'ye olde games', I am told over and over again, were so seriously flawed and unplayable that we could not have possibly played them, and we are hopelessly out of touch with modern gaming.

Well, yeah, all right; what I keep hammering away on is that Tekumel is a world-setting, not a set of rules, and can be used no matter what the rules system the GM / players might want to play. There is no 'right' or 'wrong'; to me, it's all about what you and your group like to play and enjoy playing. (I am told that this approach is BadWrongFun, by the way.)

I'd like to see Chicagowiz (spelling, sorry!) take a run at this; he's had a lot more time in grade on this then I have...

Well, never forget that on the Internet the number one form of entertainment is pissing on other peoples' fun.

Seriously, it happened over at the Model Railroader Magazine forums again today; somebody posted in excitement about a DM&IR Yellowstone coming out in HO scale for about $600, and three or four assgaskets showed up to tell him why it was a stupid model and he was stupid for liking it.

Originally Posted by Gronan of Simmerya

Well, never forget that on the Internet the number one form of entertainment is pissing on other peoples' fun.

Seriously, it happened over at the Model Railroader Magazine forums again today; somebody posted in excitement about a DM&IR Yellowstone coming out in HO scale for about $600, and three or four assgaskets showed up to tell him why it was a stupid model and he was stupid for liking it.

Agreed. And your example is a prime reason why I stopped going to the Hennepin Overland Model Railroad Club - I'm sorry, Museum; they changed the name for tax purposes - and giving them my hobby money. I got tired of the hassle I got for my BadWrongFun ideas - Great Western Railway in 'OO', not a 'Murrican railroad in HO; oh, the heresy!!! - and took my business elsewhere. (Wakefield, West Yorkshire, to be precise.)

I stopped gaming at The Source Comics and Games for pretty much the same reason; I got tired of being told by the shop staff that I was some kind of freak for doing big miniatures games, and why wasn't I playing a real game like D&DWhateverEdition or Pathfinder.

The straw that broke the camel's back was the day I went up to the cash register with a big basket of the new Pathfinder miniatures by Reaper, and the young snot behind the counter told me that the store was running a Pathfinder tournament, and if I asked nicely he'd get me into a game so I'd be eligible for the Big Prizes. I politely replied that I did not play Pathfinder; he gave me the sort of look usually given to the totally stupid and asked me "Then why are you buying the Pathfinder figures?"

I had just started to reply that I was buying them because I liked them and enjoyed painting them, when the other young snot behind the other till told the first one that "He's really weird; he doesn't play games, he just runs them."

Well, all right. I bought the figures, because I did like them and can use them in my games, but I was pretty discouraged by the incident. My purchases at the store dropped from about $2,500 a year down to last year's grand total of $100. (Laser-cut boats; I can use them for both RPGs and wargames.)

Now, pretty much all of my hobby money now goes to on-line shops; for some odd reason, they seem to be very happy to take my money.

And the icing on the came came last year, when the shop staff asked me point-bank why I wasn't running any games there, any more. Apparently, from what they told me, my games were always a big boost for miniatures sales - my games would routinely bring in about $1,500 in miniatures sales on the day I was doing my thing. "Please, oh, please," they said, "won't you please come back and run more of your wonderful games?"

I smiled, and told them the same thing as I just mentioned above, paid for my lovely little boats, and left. Haven't been back since, haven't bought anything since, and just don't miss it. I get my paints at the crafts store - cheaper, my resin scenery items at the pet shop (aquarium and terrarium items) - cheaper, and my figures on-line directly from the manufacturer - cheaper.

So much for my 'FLGS'; and people wonder why retail shops are struggling.

And they are still better then the game shop in my neighborhood, Gamers' Vault. Walked in there in a Saturday afternoon to browse around, and got ignored by the four gamer guys behind the counter, who were using the shop's high-speed Internet to play an online game. After about twenty minutes, I left. No purchase.

And they are even yet better then the other local store, Tower Games, which is the hang-out for the local 'Warmachine' players and one of the local 'Warhammer' Chapters; walked in there one day with Eldest Daughter - who's a gamer, by the way - and OhMyGod!!!AWoman!!! erupted. We were just about thrown out for defiling The Sacred Chambers Of The Holy Temple; I could not believe the hostile looks we got from the gamer boys. (Didn't buy anything there, either.)

I try very hard not to piss on other people's fun. What works for you and your gamers is fine by me.

However, my bucket is only so big. Eventually, I get tired of emptying it.

Originally Posted by Luca

I have to say, I really envy you people having the possibility of playing with the "old guard". Sitting on the other side of the pond makes the prospect unfeasible.

Gary actually came in Italy once, being invited to a game convention, and ran some adventure. I didn't go to that particular con and I'll always regret it.

Well, I think we were lucky, back in the day, and i think we're lucky now with Luke and his family being willing to host a convention where all us old farts are welcome.

And it's why I try to answer your questions as honestly and accurately as possible. If there's anything I have that you can take away from my ramblings, please feel free to do so!!!

Originally Posted by AsenRG

Well, I can't speak for your experiences in the early years of gaming. I know that my players "got" Tekumel in minutes with just an explanation from me.
Then again, it might be regional. Most of the good players I know have little issues grasping some core concepts, like hierarchical societies and clan-based societies, that seem to be a Big Deal on the other side of the Atlantic.


OK, you might have been talking about a later edition.
And well, I said it already. I really, really can't talk about what Gary and Dave were thinking. I'm just quite sure that if you try and run a complex setting, but change it to be into black and white...well, it might work. But you might also end up with a setting that's too complex for people that like black and white, and not nuanced enough for those that like shades of grey.


What are those "experienced" people that have never met a setting that's at least similar to Tekumel? Seriously, that's just weird.

And yes, the lack of encouragement is a problem. Though why people want new products for a game line is something that's, frankly, beyond me.

Well, I'm sure a bunch of stoned Talmudic scholars would make a great game if you could get them to play...
But yeah, I've seen people like that on another forum. I just decided that this isn't what I'm looking for, and passed their games.

Nothing wrong with searching for the Platonic Ideal of a game. You just need scholarly studies on games in general, and many games of all kinds, not just D&D.


So what? Are people in the USA so steeped in "patent law" that they need to know what the author was doing?
To us here, it doesn't matter whether the people that created a game where doing it differently. The only thing that matters is what we like. We'll repurpose the games if we want to.
I really don't understand that objection. Seriously.

Actually, what I'd like to ask all of the above is the same.
"Apart from specific mechanics, what did the latest 3 editions of D&D dropped that you were using, and what did they add?"
Seriously. I'm not trying to recreate the games you had, I'm trying to learn from your experience. Such questions are much more useful in my book!

...since when do you need any qualification apart from "I run and play games, my GMs aren't kicking me out and my players keep coming for more"?



Wait, what? Aren't those the proto-games that the OSR is based on?
I mean, seriously...

Sounds logical...wait, what? Since when is the OSR considering BadWrongFun the existence of settings distinct from their systems?

Me too. You two with Gronan are just trying to persuade me that I don't understant what the OSR is about!
(Or at least it seems so. Though I'm afraid that this is not the case).

Personally, to me it's mostly about Permission By Tradition and innovation. "Many people had fun with these games, thus it's legit for you to have fun with them as well. But if you want to use them differently, here are some changes you might make".
Or I might be totally wrong. No skin off my back even if I am.

Taking things in some sort of order...

Personally, I think your players 'got' Tekumel very quickly because they aren't Americans. We Yanks tend to be culturally illiterate, and pretty narrow-minded and uneducated. See also Gary and Dave on 'evil-good' vs. 'Stability-Change'. Too complicated for 'Murricans, they felt.

Yes; all later editions and products have been commercially insignificant. However, you fix thins by moving the goalposts and putting a spin on the data. Or just ignore the numbers, and talk in platitudes.

Encouragement comes from introductory products, and not being elitist. Tellling a new player or GM that they have to master a language in order to play doesn;t get you any players of GMs; see also The Pundit's comments on this, or the vast commerical success of Harn or Jorune; one of those was explictly modeled on Tekumel, and you had to learn a new vocabulary. Didn't work, despite some really good effort on the part of the authors.

Encouragement does not come from am on-line forum were the routine discussions - when there are any - are all about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. It does put people off.

Exactly. Which is why "Playing at the World" has not gone over well with quite a few Big-Name OSR people, Jon told me at Gary Con this past spring.

Yes. People need to know what colors Dave Arneson's plaid shirt was, so that they can 'get it right'. Honest to god - actual question I got from a gamer.

Exactly. All I can do is tell you what we did out at Phil's for all those years, and let you take away what you need and can use. I'm an archivist, not a censor. Nor do I feel the need to rewrite history, either, to make myself look more important and enhance my 'prestige'.

No, All those old games Got It Wrong, and only my new game gets it right. Dave and Gary and Phil were just some guys who just got lucky, according to some of the OSR folks who I've talked to. Only the OSR follows the One True Faith; all others, from all places and times, are big poopies.

Or so I'm told by my betters, anyway.