Questioning chirine ba kal

**Greentongue** · 08-28-2015, 12:44 PM

Speaking of countryside,
Would carving out areas that are bordered by Tekumel's native vegetation as "wild zones" fit your experience?

Was this something you dealt with?

Areas that all manner of opponents can sally forth from.
=

**Hrugga** · 08-28-2015, 05:18 PM

Chirine,

I know you mentioned that one of your clan wives was from a different temple than yourself. That you both kept an eye on each other...

Can you please talk a bit about how an individual's loyalities would go on Tekumel in general? Wife, Clan, Temple, Empire...Empire, Temple, Clan, Wife, etc.

Thanks,

H :0)

**Gronan of Simmerya** · 08-28-2015, 06:32 PM

It depends. Chorine worships Vimuhla, my character worships Karakan. We both loyally serve the Empire in the same legion.

**AsenRG** · 08-28-2015, 09:07 PM

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

Well, I do agree with you.

Unfortunately, there's a lot of elitism going on with Tekumel, and a lot of posturing and positioning going on to try and convince other people that The True Fans are a chosen band of highly intellectual and artistically superior gamers who are head and shoulders above the hoi polloi and peasants who play such 'common' games as D&D and Pathfinder.

I am a populist, not an elitist, and I've been getting crap from these people for years. My book, for example, is regarded as A Bad Thing, because I am aiming it at people like you, and not writing it for people like them.

And I'm the guy neither elitists nor populists like

.

Originally Posted by Bren

This reminds me of a Friends of Darkover meeting that a buddy of mine dragged me to back in the early eighties. Those folks would have loved language seminars. They all had Darkover names and came across to me as a very odd bunch. Which, considering I'd been playing RPGs for maybe a decade, and had been to Sci-Fi cons and SCA events is kind of saying something. Not as weird as the Amway meeting I got suckered into later though.

OK, that says a lot, indeed.
But then, Darkover was the thing that persuaded me that MZB might have fans, but I'm not going to be one of those. So I'm less surprised than you

.

Originally Posted by Bren

That is a point I find I have to reinforce in some of my games. A lot of players/people just don't easily or naturally think about attire and demeanor in that way. No doubt this is abetted by the move to much more casual business and leisure attire world wide. And the US is definitely way out front on this one.

I vaguely remember my players in Fates Worse Than Death considering whether to kill someone in order to get the proper attire. It didn't seem weird to them.

Originally Posted by Gronan of Simmerya

I have 6000 troops at my back, I'm not going to dick around with a one on one duel with the enemy general.

In the "Qadarli," the "little wars," which were more like duels, taking the enemy command unit is a good idea.

But the idea that armies ever abided by the result of a "duel of commanders" anytime anywhere is frankly nugatory.

You're thinking of "professional soldiers". Try "conscripts". The kind that are going to fight "because they're more afraid of the punishment", to quote the Chinese treaties.
Still ready to bet those wouldn't run?

Originally Posted by Gronan of Simmerya

Years of chasing and being chased through the deserts of Milumanaya tends to blunt one's taste for ritual, doesn't it?

I'd bet it does.
Then again, I'm also pretty sure said deserts didn't have you meeting conscripts.

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

Oh, let's open this can of worms, shall we?

Prof. M. A.R. Barker was 'Stability/Change' from around 1948 to 2012. He liked the dichotomy, and didn't see that there was an issue with it. We played it that way at his games; in his view of his creation, it wasn't a major issue in the life of the people who lived in his world.

Mr. E. Gary Gygax and Mr. David L. Arneson were 'Good vs. Evil' from about 1972-73 to well into the 2000's.

Mr. Gygax and Mr. Arneson persuaded Prof. Barker to drop the 'shades of grey' approach that 'Stability / Change' embraced, and so the published edition of what became EPT had this removed and the black and white 'Good vs. Evil' inserted in to the blanks. This was largely due to their firm belief that gamers didn't have the cultural sophistication or the native intelligence to deal with anything more complicated then a black-and-white dichotomy.

So, EPT got changed in the summer of 1974, and there you are. As Phil once said: "Well, he was paying for it." and shrugged his shoulders. Just to add to the fun, Phil once remarked that by Dave and Gary's standards, all of Tekumel's religions are EEEEEEEEvil in comparison to the various (and Phil's opinion, rather vague and undefined) religions in D&D; Gary and Dave had to admit the point, to their discomfort.

And I've got to admit that the only thing that I hate more than "thou shall take gaming to illogical extremes, for it is a nartform" is the approach "dumb it down, you that game are too dumb to get it if there are shades of grey". Hey, buddy, I'm a gamer, are you really trying to offend me?

As stated before, populists and elitists tend to hate me roughly equally. You can now see why

!

**chirine ba kal** · 08-29-2015, 12:55 AM

Originally Posted by Greentongue

How "adventurous" is travel for beginning players?
You had mentioned "greasing" the palms of the road guards.
Are there road guards on all roads or just the Sakbe?

From your experience, is the main danger in the countryside starving villagers and bandits?
=

Well, if you stay on the main routes, it's pretty safe. The only guards are on the Sakbe roads; any place else you're pretty much on your own. There are small detachments of 'river police', but they are few and far between.

You are always better off hiring the locals as guides, as they'll usually know what to expect - and be a source of adventures, as well!

The wildlife. The bandits stick to the main routes, because that's where the money is. The villagers are usually quite peaceful and willing to take in travelers, but be very mindful of the local customs and always ask first; they have plenty of places to hide the bodies, and nobody will ever know.

**chirine ba kal** · 08-29-2015, 12:58 AM

Originally Posted by Greentongue

Speaking of countryside,
Would carving out areas that are bordered by Tekumel's native vegetation as "wild zones" fit your experience?

Was this something you dealt with?

Areas that all manner of opponents can sally forth from.
=

No, not in my group. We were soldiers, and the people who had to deal with whatever came out of the deep woods. (shudder!)

**chirine ba kal** · 08-29-2015, 01:18 AM

Originally Posted by Hrugga

Chirine,

I know you mentioned that one of your clan wives was from a different temple than yourself. That you both kept an eye on each other...

Can you please talk a bit about how an individual's loyalities would go on Tekumel in general? Wife, Clan, Temple, Empire...Empire, Temple, Clan, Wife, etc.

Thanks,

H :0)

Sure. Let's start with Their Ladyships, in order of their marriage contracts:

1. Senior Wife:
Priestess of Mretten, reports my nefarious doings to her temple;

2. First Concubine:
Priestess of Ksarul, reports my nefarious doings to her temple and secret society;

3. "Huh?" "Even-numbered month, dear. She's your third, I'm your fourth." "Yes, dear." Anyway...

3. Junior Wife:
Priestess of Kirreneb, reports my nefarious doings to her temple and secret police;

4. Chief Courtesan:
Priestess of the Lost One of the Sea, reports my nefarious doings to her temple and secret police;

5. Second Concubine:
Priestess of Dilinala, reports my nefarious doings to her temple and to all of the above.

As the Glorious General noted in his reply, who you are being loyal to in any given situation depends on the context of the situation. If I'm with my legion, I look out for my troops, with my family, I look out for them.

Generally, the sequence goes:

Immediate family, immediate clan, Legion (if one), secret society, distant family, temple, political faction or party, distant clan, nation-state (if any).

It's a real balancing act, and about the only reason why it works is because everybody has to do it - so compromise is usually the order of the day.

Do you want more? This is a very complex subject, and I could go on for ages...

**chirine ba kal** · 08-29-2015, 01:21 AM

Originally Posted by Gronan of Simmerya

It depends. Chorine worships Vimuhla, my character worships Karakan. We both loyally serve the Empire in the same legion.

Yep. We may be of different faiths, and maybe political parties. I'm an Imperialist; the Glorious General may be from the Military Party - I never asked him, myself, as we were a little too busy most of the time trying to stay alive.

**chirine ba kal** · 08-29-2015, 01:24 AM

Originally Posted by AsenRG

And I've got to admit that the only thing that I hate more than "thou shall take gaming to illogical extremes, for it is a nartform" is the approach "dumb it down, you that game are too dumb to get it if there are shades of grey". Hey, buddy, I'm a gamer, are you really trying to offend me?

Yeah, same here. I think Dave and Gary were looking at 'marketability of the product', more then anything else.

**AsenRG** · 08-29-2015, 09:56 AM

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

Yeah, same here. I think Dave and Gary were looking at 'marketability of the product', more then anything else.

Marketability is certainly important. Then again, you've mentioned that Tekumel never was a great commercial success, right?
Maybe dumbing it down isn't always the best idea.

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