Thread: Questioning chirine ba kal

Originally Posted by Greentongue

I assume that people are just as deceitful as anywhere else but how does honor fit into this framework?

Is a person's word their bond or do things need witnesses? documented?
Is the spirit of an agreement upheld or only the actual wording?
Would an honorable person outright lie or just twist the truth?
When caught in a lie, how is that handled?
Is lying to further the goals of the clan accepted? at least by the clan?
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I'd say you are correct. 'Honor', or 'Noble Action', generally advises people not to be dishonest in their dealings. Out and out lying is not usually done by people; evasion and prevarication certainly is, but fraud and the like is not as the consequences of getting caught are normally pretty severe. And, one tries not to place one's associates in positions where they would have to lie, either; I do not ask Gronan about the secrets of his clan or temple, and he doesn't ask me awkward questions as well. there may very well be situations where one has to outright lie, but there had better be pretty compelling reasons why one has to. For example, I'd expect a prisoner to lie to me about his associates to protect them; I'd normally just smile, and get the information some other way.

Between persons who trust each other, it's 'word is bond'; with people one does not trust, the agreements can get pretty elaborate, with documents, witnesses, third-party 'referees', and all sorts of other complications. Same thing for the 'spirit'/'letter' of the agreement - it's all about how far you trust them. If I was negotiating with a 'friendly', things would be to the spirit; with a 'hostile', to the 'letter'.

Generally, an honorable person says nothing in this kind of a situation - the running joke in Phil's game sessions was to say "I admire the fine Engsvanyali traceries in the ceiling carvings..." Prevaricate, tap-dance, misdirect, but don't lie. Getting caught can mean anything from a smile-with-apology to paying shamtla to a fatal duel in the arena, depending on how bad the lie hurts somebody.

Generally, clans will prefer that one not lie; it's bad for the clan's reputation, and it will hurt the clan's business and social standing. Harchar may be a buccaneer and smuggler, and the despair of the Blazoned Sail clan, but he's an honest buccaneer and smuggler and can be trusted to deliver the (usually highly illegal) goods. Arneson was very proud of the fact that he never lied to a customs official - he could wheedle a duck off a tarn, to quote my Scots ancestors...

Originally Posted by Hrugga

Yes Sir. You are quite right!!! I will get right down to business...

Question #1. In the novels and sourcebooks, I have heard of places that are haunted and mention of ghosts. However I have never seen any stats for ghosts or other spirit like entities. Have I missed something? Have you ever had to battle any of these types of beings in any of your adventures?
Thanks in advance...

PS I can not wait to get my hands on a copy of To Serve the Petal Throne in book form!!! Your blog is fantastic too!!! Your love for Tekumel shows through...

Right, then; let me have a go at this - I will try not to get all metaphysical on you...

There are no stats in any of Phil's rules for 'ghosts' and 'spirits' because 'ghosts' and 'spirits' don't have stats. (Eh? What?) This goes back to Phil's world-setting being a Sword and Planet setting - a lot of the assumptions that often get made in 'fantasy' settings don't apply. The best example of this are the Gods; they are not 'gods' in the sense we understand the term, but rather much more highly-advanced beings. (Clarke's Third Law, again.) 'Demons' are the same, other people going about their business in their own universes - we have 772 of them, remember - until some pesky player-character summons them to our pocket dimension. (I've shown up in Dave Arneson's "Blackmoor" campaign as a 'demon', for example.)

The beings that we see in a lot of fantasy RPG settings don't exist in Phil's Tekumel. There are a lot of beings that do a very good job of simulating the kinds of effects and such that we consider to be 'ghosts' in RPGs, but they are very real and can be fought or otherwise interacted with. See the lists in EPT for examples, often in the Underworld.

What I think you are calling 'ghosts' and 'spirits' are usually what we found in various ancient sites; we used the terms 'manifestations' and 'apparitions' formally, but as often used the term 'ghosts' informally. (Which is where I think the imprecision may be coming from; not your fault!) These appear, quite often, as 'scenes' from the distant past, much like the very rare 'picture boxes' of the Ancients; you will be in a room or space, when these apparitions will appear and seem to act out something from the past; you can't interact with the figures, as they are insubstantial and made up of some sort of energy. You can't 'battle' them, as they take no notice of you or your actions, and they simply get on with their 'show' and then fade away. They offer you no harm or interference; you can actually walk right through them, which is harmless but you do get a prickly sensation from going through the energy field that they exist in.

There are all sorts of very complicated and very unconvincing explanations as to what causes these apparitions that have been advanced by scholars over the centuries; as near as anyone can tell, these manifestations are the result of the 'life energy' or a portion of the spirit-soul being 'impressed' or 'recorded', and when the lines of other-planar energy intersect properly, the 'recorded' show 'plays back'. These manifestations occur even if there is no body there to watch them in the space where they occur; I've seen quite a few, in my travels, and there are some where you can see the glow in the night sky from quite a distance.

Basically, they just happen. They provide a lot of 'local color' for the GM / referee / storyteller to provide clues, hints, plot devices, and just plain entertainment to the players. Engsvanyali locations seem to be richer in these kinds of things, or at least more of them seem to have survived.

Does this answer your question?

Thank you for your kind words about the book and the blog; I try to share what we had with Phil with you, as it was pretty special...

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

Food! Glorious food!!!

Actually, good question! You can be all over the social spectrum on this. I get grain porridge three times a day when I am on campaign with the legion as part of my daily rations; we add to this whatever we can carry up in the baggage train or can forage from the locals.

Boot a la sand beetle again tonight, Chirine? (I HATE desert campaigns.)

Also, viz honor and loyalty, it's amazing when your own unit are the only people in a thousand tsan not trying to kill you how you all come to trust each other...

Rejoice for me. While on holiday, I found a good condition copy of Flamesong at Curious Books in East Lansing. Woo. Hoo!

Originally Posted by Greentongue

Space (not the final frontier)
From what I can tell from countries on Earth, space is an indicator of wealth and importance.
Anything from being carried above the crowd in your own "space" to having vast mostly empty buildings in your clan compound.
The amount of empty space that belongs to you is a visual indicator of your importance and power.

If this assumption is true for Tekumel, how important is it and how much is enough to attract notice?

Is having a space forced for you through a crowd more than being carried above them or the same?

From what I saw of the map, this holds true in the underground also?
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I think this is pretty accurate, especially regarding architecture. Phil's city maps show very clearly that higher wealth and status usually gives more open space; ditto for his Underworld map of Jakalla. Poor and low status people tend to get crammed in pretty tightly. I'd suggest looking at Mughal India for city plans and building plans that work for Tekumel. My personal favorite is a palace in Kerala that I think you'll like:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1f1zNrdUpNc

My Missus contacted the Archeological Survey of India, and got us the plans of the place.

Higher status and wealthier people do get carried above the crowds on their palanquins, and really rude people have their retainers clear a path for them; most noble persons prefer not to be rude and simply have the retainer with the best voice call out "Make Way! Make way for the Noble Lord!", which usually works pretty nicely and gets very favorable attention for the noble person. A really clever person in a hurry will resort to throwing coins into the crowd to either side, which clears a path in a real hurry and male one very popular. Coppers are preferred for this, as they cost less and have a nice throwing reach for the minion doing the tossing.

Originally Posted by Gronan of Simmerya

Boot a la sand beetle again tonight, Chirine? (I HATE desert campaigns.)

Also, viz honor and loyalty, it's amazing when your own unit are the only people in a thousand tsan not trying to kill you how you all come to trust each other...

Why, yes. Glorious General; will you have your boot with sand on the side or sand as a garnish?

Yeah, funny thing about that. It might help that the locals are cannibals, too.

[Added:] And Phil's idea of lovely tourist spots made Arneson and Blackmoor look really good. We couldn't be too upset with Phil, though, as he'd tell us hair-raising stories of all the places he'd been and survived...