Thread: Questioning chirine ba kal

Originally Posted by Greentongue

There is my point.
As the person running the game, and not being The Professor, information on how to describe a person should be available if that is as integral to the game as some claim.
While the "you recognize him as a such and such" because of his clothing, hair and badges is how I would do it, there are players that want to know HOW?
Obviously a choice is to not play with those kind of people but, that kind of detail is put forth as a selling point by many fans of the game.
As far as I know there is not even a simple list of fabrics to draw from. Flax? Wool? Linen? Silk? What are clothes made of?
=

Many of the fans who make this kind of thing a selling point for the game have very little idea what they are talking about; they have, in quite a few of the conversations I've had with them over the years, a quite superficial gloss on the setting. They are devoted experts in game mechanics, but not very educated in the setting. I'm the opposite, and it baffles them; for them, recondite rules and complex mechanics are far more important then actual details. They will go on and on abut how Tekumel is so richly detailed, but they've barely scratched the surface in many cases.

As for fabrics, S&G I has a section on Costume that covers this. Yes, to all of your examples, by the way.

Originally Posted by Greentongue

There is my point.
As the person running the game, and not being The Professor, information on how to describe a person should be available if that is as integral to the game as some claim.
While the "you recognize him as a such and such" because of his clothing, hair and badges is how I would do it, there are players that want to know HOW?
Obviously a choice is to not play with those kind of people but, that kind of detail is put forth as a selling point by many fans of the game.
As far as I know there is not even a simple list of fabrics to draw from. Flax? Wool? Linen? Silk? What are clothes made of?
=

I would like to take a stab at this, if I may? This to me is exactly why Tekumel hasn't been a commercial success. A small minority has, over the years, perpetuated the myth that in order to play the game and adventure in the setting one has to be an expert in minutaie and have a PhD in fluff. They justify this assertion by stating that Professor Barker did it this way, therefore it's the right and only way to properly game on Tekumel. I recently heard something along these lines from one of the so-called experts. I call BS on this mind frame.
The players who think this way have drunk the kool-aid and need to be told so, and shown how a Tekumel campaign can function just fine without all the pedantic details. I can say as a long time DM of Tekumel based campaigns if I were playing in such a game I would get up and leave the first time someone corrected my pronunciation, or told me I was "doing it wrong.". My most recent game has been running for a year now. Of the four players only one is really familiar with Tekumel, one sort of knows what it's about, and the other two had not heard of it before we started the campaign. This hasn't prevented us from having a viable and fun game.
To your specific points, I would completely just fake it like you would. "His haircut is short at the front and long in the back, but has been brought together in a Top Knot marking him as a native of the Kurt Hills. He wears the badge of the Ito Clan on his tunic, and the intricate copper jewellery he wears on his hands and around his neck mark him as a high member of this clan." All BS, as far as " canon" but close enough to satisfy even the pedants I would think. As to the HOW, for those players you mention, it's really quite simple: imagination. I recently read an interesting anecdote on a website, whose name completely escapes me at the moment, about Phil. A person asked him what was located in such and such a place on the map. Phil responded that he really didn't know as he hadn't been there. The questioner was incredulous and asked him how that was possible, after all he had created the world and drawn the map. Phil responded by saying he had a general idea about what was there, but not specifics because his game hadn't gone there yet. Basically, even he hadn't developed everything, or seen the need to. This has been my approach over the years as well. I use what is available from the Sourcebook, or novels, or the Blue Room, or published articles, and make up the rest. If nothing has been written about it, who's to say that I am wrong?
BTW, the Sourcebook covers the various types of fabrics if I'm not mistaken, such as Hma wool and Gudru(?) Silk.

Shemek.

Originally Posted by Shemek hiTankolel

I would like to take a stab at this, if I may? This to me is exactly why Tekumel hasn't been a commercial success. A small minority has, over the years, perpetuated the myth that in order to play the game and adventure in the setting one has to be an expert in minutaie and have a PhD in fluff. They justify this assertion by stating that Professor Barker did it this way, therefore it's the right and only way to properly game on Tekumel. I recently heard something along these lines from one of the so-called experts. I call BS on this mind frame.
The players who think this way have drunk the kool-aid and need to be told so, and shown how a Tekumel campaign can function just fine without all the pedantic details. I can say as a long time DM of Tekumel based campaigns if I were playing in such a game I would get up and leave the first time someone corrected my pronunciation, or told me I was "doing it wrong.". My most recent game has been running for a year now. Of the four players only one is really familiar with Tekumel, one sort of knows what it's about, and the other two had not heard of it before we started the campaign. This hasn't prevented us from having a viable and fun game.
To your specific points, I would completely just fake it like you would. "His haircut is short at the front and long in the back, but has been brought together in a Top Knot marking him as a native of the Kurt Hills. He wears the badge of the Ito Clan on his tunic, and the intricate copper jewellery he wears on his hands and around his neck mark him as a high member of this clan." All BS, as far as " canon" but close enough to satisfy even the pedants I would think. As to the HOW, for those players you mention, it's really quite simple: imagination. I recently read an interesting anecdote on a website, whose name completely escapes me at the moment, about Phil. A person asked him what was located in such and such a place on the map. Phil responded that he really didn't know as he hadn't been there. The questioner was incredulous and asked him how that was possible, after all he had created the world and drawn the map. Phil responded by saying he had a general idea about what was there, but not specifics because his game hadn't gone there yet. Basically, even he hadn't developed everything, or seen the need to. This has been my approach over the years as well. I use what is available from the Sourcebook, or novels, or the Blue Room, or published articles, and make up the rest. If nothing has been written about it, who's to say that I am wrong?
BTW, the Sourcebook covers the various types of fabrics if I'm not mistaken, such as Hma wool and Gudru(?) Silk.

Shemek.

This. I remember the incident quite well; the interviewer was truly shocked to find out that Phil was not a master of trivia for his own world.

I agree - it was always about imagination, which was why Phil included so many things that we added to his campaign. It was a 'shared world', not 'holy writ'.

Originally Posted by Shemek hiTankolel

I would like to take a stab at this, if I may? This to me is exactly why Tekumel hasn't been a commercial success. A small minority has, over the years, perpetuated the myth that in order to play the game and adventure in the setting one has to be an expert in minutaie and have a PhD in fluff. They justify this assertion by stating that Professor Barker did it this way, therefore it's the right and only way to properly game on Tekumel. I recently heard something along these lines from one of the so-called experts. I call BS on this mind frame.
The players who think this way have drunk the kool-aid and need to be told so, and shown how a Tekumel campaign can function just fine without all the pedantic details. I can say as a long time DM of Tekumel based campaigns if I were playing in such a game I would get up and leave the first time someone corrected my pronunciation, or told me I was "doing it wrong.". My most recent game has been running for a year now. Of the four players only one is really familiar with Tekumel, one sort of knows what it's about, and the other two had not heard of it before we started the campaign. This hasn't prevented us from having a viable and fun game.
To your specific points, I would completely just fake it like you would. "His haircut is short at the front and long in the back, but has been brought together in a Top Knot marking him as a native of the Kurt Hills. He wears the badge of the Ito Clan on his tunic, and the intricate copper jewellery he wears on his hands and around his neck mark him as a high member of this clan." All BS, as far as " canon" but close enough to satisfy even the pedants I would think. As to the HOW, for those players you mention, it's really quite simple: imagination. I recently read an interesting anecdote on a website, whose name completely escapes me at the moment, about Phil. A person asked him what was located in such and such a place on the map. Phil responded that he really didn't know as he hadn't been there. The questioner was incredulous and asked him how that was possible, after all he had created the world and drawn the map. Phil responded by saying he had a general idea about what was there, but not specifics because his game hadn't gone there yet. Basically, even he hadn't developed everything, or seen the need to. This has been my approach over the years as well. I use what is available from the Sourcebook, or novels, or the Blue Room, or published articles, and make up the rest. If nothing has been written about it, who's to say that I am wrong?
BTW, the Sourcebook covers the various types of fabrics if I'm not mistaken, such as Hma wool and Gudru(?) Silk.

Shemek.

Very true. It always boils down to "make Tekumel yours". Read at the resources if you want. Ask questions(Chirine baKal is a great resource). Getting it right is not important. Having fun is. If your players are not happy with the game you give them, then let them seek happiness elsewhere. Just do it...!!! Don't get bogged down in "canon"...!!! Be yourself, not the Professor. Use what you will. After all it is just a game...!!!

Having fun exploring Tekumel,

H;0)

PS Uncle beat me to it...getting slow!!!

Originally Posted by Greentongue

There is my point.
As the person running the game, and not being The Professor, information on how to describe a person should be available if that is as integral to the game as some claim.
While the "you recognize him as a such and such" because of his clothing, hair and badges is how I would do it, there are players that want to know HOW?
Obviously a choice is to not play with those kind of people but, that kind of detail is put forth as a selling point by many fans of the game.
As far as I know there is not even a simple list of fabrics to draw from. Flax? Wool? Linen? Silk? What are clothes made of?
=

Okay, I simply wouldn't play with such a person; the GAME would never get anywhere. Further, I would strongly suspect that the person in question didn't actually want to play, but was trying to derail the game.

Whenever I have encountered a person with such a fixation on pedantry, their other behaviors have inevitably shown that "playing the game" was not their actual agenda.

"Ah HA! Three months ago, you said we could tell a Archymadrite of the 12th Circle of the Voldrani Supplicants by the fact that his hemi-semi-demi informal early late midafternoon hip-cloak folded to the left, but now you just said it's folded to the right? Which is it? What kind of world is this? You're the worst game master ever! Can't you even be consistent about anything?"

Sadly, not an exaggeration. And the only answer to such a person is "Bite my ass, fuckface."

In case you're wondering, yes, I am EXTREMELY fussy about the people I play with, and suspicious as hell of the motives of a sizeable group of gamers.

It's like watching a movie with somebody who pays no attention to the plot or characters but blathers incessantly about how the special effects are done and points out every ragged edge on every matte shot. "Shut the fuck UP!" is the only possible rational response.

Originally Posted by Gronan of Simmerya

Okay, I simply wouldn't play with such a person; the GAME would never get anywhere. Further, I would strongly suspect that the person in question didn't actually want to play, but was trying to derail the game.

Whenever I have encountered a person with such a fixation on pedantry, their other behaviors have inevitably shown that "playing the game" was not their actual agenda.

"Ah HA! Three months ago, you said we could tell a Archymadrite of the 12th Circle of the Voldrani Supplicants by the fact that his hemi-semi-demi informal early late midafternoon hip-cloak folded to the left, but now you just said it's folded to the right? Which is it? What kind of world is this? You're the worst game master ever! Can't you even be consistent about anything?"

Sadly, not an exaggeration. And the only answer to such a person is "Bite my ass, fuckface."

Yep. I've had more then a few people like this, over the years, who seem to be bound and determined to prove their manhood by catching Phil and I out on some obscure detail. Phil stopped having guests, because of it. Most extreme case I've had was when I asked for a one page (one sheet, both sides) 'Introduction to Tekumel'; one of my gamers offered to do it, and came back with a 63 page cut-and-paste of the Sourcebook. He insisted that new players had to learn all this material before they could play. He's very detail-obsessive to this day, and runs the most boring games I've ever sat in on - I've sen his players fall asleep during game sessions.

I don;t mind people asking "What does this look like?" That's a normal question, and to be expected in game play. What I shy away from are the people who obsess over detail to the point that it bogs down or stops game play.

Originally Posted by Gronan of Simmerya

In case you're wondering, yes, I am EXTREMELY fussy about the people I play with, and suspicious as hell of the motives of a sizeable group of gamers.

It's like watching a movie with somebody who pays no attention to the plot or characters but blathers incessantly about how the special effects are done and points out every ragged edge on every matte shot. "Shut the fuck UP!" is the only possible rational response.

Same here. Double-faced deadbolt locks on all the doors are a big help with this, we've found.

The first two posts on our trip to CincyCon VIII are now up on my blog, with photos...

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

Yep. I've had more then a few people like this, over the years, who seem to be bound and determined to prove their manhood by catching Phil and I out on some obscure detail. Phil stopped having guests, because of it. Most extreme case I've had was when I asked for a one page (one sheet, both sides) 'Introduction to Tekumel'; one of my gamers offered to do it, and came back with a 63 page cut-and-paste of the Sourcebook. He insisted that new players had to learn all this material before they could play. He's very detail-obsessive to this day, and runs the most boring games I've ever sat in on - I've sen his players fall asleep during game sessions.

I don;t mind people asking "What does this look like?" That's a normal question, and to be expected in game play. What I shy away from are the people who obsess over detail to the point that it bogs down or stops game play.

Why didn't you hand it back to him and told him "your assignment isn't even half done - that's 31.5 times the amount of space you were allowed"?
Some day, I'd be tempted to explain Tekumel in two pages, myself. Those would be extremely densely-packed pages, but it still would be two pages. I'm just wondering how the Foundation would react if I was to put it on my blog!

Originally Posted by Gronan of Simmerya

In case you're wondering, yes, I am EXTREMELY fussy about the people I play with, and suspicious as hell of the motives of a sizeable group of gamers.

It's like watching a movie with somebody who pays no attention to the plot or characters but blathers incessantly about how the special effects are done and points out every ragged edge on every matte shot. "Shut the fuck UP!" is the only possible rational response.

I'm kinda that guy, though not when it comes to special effects...
Though, in my defence, I've learned not to share those observations. But don't ask me about the opinion after the movie, unless I say it was good!
Then again, lately I simply don't go to movies which contain the kind of details that would irk me.

Originally Posted by Shemek hiTankolel

I would like to take a stab at this, if I may? This to me is exactly why Tekumel hasn't been a commercial success. A small minority has, over the years, perpetuated the myth that in order to play the game and adventure in the setting one has to be an expert in minutaie and have a PhD in fluff. They justify this assertion by stating that Professor Barker did it this way, therefore it's the right and only way to properly game on Tekumel.

I recently read an interesting anecdote on a website, whose name completely escapes me at the moment, about Phil. A person asked him what was located in such and such a place on the map. Phil responded that he really didn't know as he hadn't been there. The questioner was incredulous and asked him how that was possible, after all he had created the world and drawn the map. Phil responded by saying he had a general idea about what was there, but not specifics because his game hadn't gone there yet. Basically, even he hadn't developed everything, or seen the need to. This has been my approach over the years as well. I use what is available from the Sourcebook, or novels, or the Blue Room, or published articles, and make up the rest. If nothing has been written about it, who's to say that I am wrong?
BTW, the Sourcebook covers the various types of fabrics if I'm not mistaken, such as Hma wool and Gudru(?) Silk.

Shemek.

They tend to forget that Phil did have a PhD, and not because of Tekumel - it's the other way around.

Also, I think it was in this thread. It sure made me laugh, because I'm calling "know the general outline, make up details when you get to them" my method of Lazy GMing for...close to a decade, now?
And I've caught some flak over it during the years, too. Including being accused of "making up the details to suit the story instead of presenting a fixed challenge" (Illusionism, in other words).

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

The first two posts on our trip to CincyCon VIII are now up on my blog, with photos...

Those photos seem cool!