Thread: Questioning chirine ba kal

Originally Posted by AsenRG

Well, if we go by what Gronan saiys, that might be too high of a requirement!

More seriously, he has to explain what he's offering. I see how modesty might be an impediment to this, but then I also managed to overcome it!

Agreed, on both points!

Honestly, I've known many gamers over the years who had no idea who Gary Gygax was let alone Dave Arneson. Lots of them clearly never read the rules either. "But that's how we played it!" Which is fine if you have some idea of how it was supposed to be played. But more often than not it's simply too much bother to figure it out or do the reading. It's like the various Monopoly house rules that people don't realize aren't actually in the game.

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

In my time, simply being 'social' was always the best way to deal with people. One does not simply walk into a shop and plunk down the cash; one arrives, is greeted and made comfortable, served refreshments, and a pleasant conversation is had about the weather, local festivals, one's relatives, and then eventually business may be done. it's all very low key and low-pressure, and something that a lot of gamers simply can't get their heads around. like haggling - see also "Casablanca"...

Oddly enough, this is something that all the young players (12-15 year olds) have done from the word go in our campaign. I think they would talk to everyone if they could. I was stunned at this and was hoping that it was my awesome GM skills, lol. I found at least one interesting source of their adapting this style when the only adult (one of their fathers, who is an experienced gamer and was more of the shop-keeps-as-vending-machines mentality) got annoyed and asked why they kept talking to everybody. They all said that in video games you talk to as many people as possible to get all the cool side quests, which give you all the unique items or clues that make beating a game easier. I admit this caught me by surprise as the idea that video games habits and tropes ruin tabletop games is pretty well plowed land and here they were turning it on its head. A very pleasant surprise, I must say.

Originally Posted by nDervish

I'm not sure that it's even just the instant commerce. I've seen several discussions on various forums where people have complained that roleplaying shopkeepers is a total waste of time and that GMs should just let players browse the price lists in their spare time, then buy whatever they want at the book's listed price between game sessions so that, when they're at the table, they can focus exclusively on the "real" game (whether that means following the GM's story line, playing out combats, or whatever else). There definitely seems to be an element of "shopkeepers are just vending machines", but there's also a feeling of "we don't want to waste time on mundane, day-to-day interactions".

I get this, to a point. I don't want to role play character's trips to the privy. Something that serves a purpose to the game, that is different. If something tries to come up out of the cesspit to eat you in the privy, let's go.

As far as shopping, in some settings, how people treat you and vice versa carries far more meaning than in others, Tekumel being one of them. If somebody wants to drop in some hand wavy stuff, handing them the price lists and assuming the time, effort, and expense of things like Chirine mentions, I am cool with that. I can always slow things down if the characters are treated worse than before (which should cause some questions) or better (same). And I think in a more sandbox game, which is what I run, going to the shop or whatever is the real game or story line.

Originally Posted by Zirunel

The actual 1934 deMille version with Claudette Colbert comes on right before the 1963 version, and I believe there are several other versions on later that evening. Its a Cleomarathon, so pack a few meals!

(nb Forbidden Planet is on tomorrow)

Woo hoo! Now we're talking!

Phil once said that his vision of 'high technology' looked like the Krell installations in "Forbidden Planet", so there;s some very good material there.

The Claudette Colbert 'Cleo' was on of his all time favorites - look at her in the film, then look at his 1950's drawing of Nayari of the Silken Thighs. The '63 version can;t be beat for sheer visual spectacle - Phil wanted his very own giant Sphinx cart to ride around on - for the characterization the '34 version is the best. She just owns the movie; the guys playing Caesar and Anthony just get left in the shade.

Originally Posted by David Johansen

Honestly, I've known many gamers over the years who had no idea who Gary Gygax was let alone Dave Arneson. Lots of them clearly never read the rules either. "But that's how we played it!" Which is fine if you have some idea of how it was supposed to be played. But more often than not it's simply too much bother to figure it out or do the reading. It's like the various Monopoly house rules that people don't realize aren't actually in the game.

Yep; I've seen this myself. It never ceases to amaze me the very positive reaction I get from players, when I run my games in Ye Olden Style. They feel wonderfully liberated, and seem to have a good time. (Ask Gronan; he's been on the receiving end of my little efforts a few times.)

Originally Posted by nDervish

I'm not sure that it's even just the instant commerce. I've seen several discussions on various forums where people have complained that roleplaying shopkeepers is a total waste of time and that GMs should just let players browse the price lists in their spare time, then buy whatever they want at the book's listed price between game sessions so that, when they're at the table, they can focus exclusively on the "real" game (whether that means following the GM's story line, playing out combats, or whatever else). There definitely seems to be an element of "shopkeepers are just vending machines", but there's also a feeling of "we don't want to waste time on mundane, day-to-day interactions".

Oh, my. I'm gobsmacked. Some of the very best, and I do mean very best nights we ever had with Phil were trips to the marketplace to do a little shopping, and we always found ourselves very challenged in the process - and all sorts of side adventures offered themselves, as a result.

I... I... I'm having trouble getting my head around this.I mean, I can understand it, but players like this would find my kind of gaming - as well as Braunsteins, for that matter - a complete waste of their time.

Sigh. Gods, I feel old...

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

She just owns the movie; the guys playing Caesar and Anthony just get left in the shade.

Cleo always owns any movie she is pictured in.

Originally Posted by Big Andy

Oddly enough, this is something that all the young players (12-15 year olds) have done from the word go in our campaign. I think they would talk to everyone if they could. I was stunned at this and was hoping that it was my awesome GM skills, lol. I found at least one interesting source of their adapting this style when the only adult (one of their fathers, who is an experienced gamer and was more of the shop-keeps-as-vending-machines mentality) got annoyed and asked why they kept talking to everybody. They all said that in video games you talk to as many people as possible to get all the cool side quests, which give you all the unique items or clues that make beating a game easier. I admit this caught me by surprise as the idea that video games habits and tropes ruin tabletop games is pretty well plowed land and here they were turning it on its head. A very pleasant surprise, I must say.


I get this, to a point. I don't want to role play character's trips to the privy. Something that serves a purpose to the game, that is different. If something tries to come up out of the cesspit to eat you in the privy, let's go.

As far as shopping, in some settings, how people treat you and vice versa carries far more meaning than in others, Tekumel being one of them. If somebody wants to drop in some hand wavy stuff, handing them the price lists and assuming the time, effort, and expense of things like Chirine mentions, I am cool with that. I can always slow things down if the characters are treated worse than before (which should cause some questions) or better (same). And I think in a more sandbox game, which is what I run, going to the shop or whatever is the real game or story line.

Well, there's hope yet. I think that this is great, and you should encourage your young players - they'll have a lot more fun and adventure this way, I think.

"Why are you talking to everybody?" Well, we found out the hard way, that was the way to get information that kept us alive. And, as you say, got us the quests, cool stuff, and everything else.

Oh, yes, agreed; you don't game the stuff that doesn't need to be gamed. We never worried about stuff like this, as it was assumed that our PCs knew how to use the latrine. (As you say, what came up out of the latrine was a different matter. ) I don't mind people ordering off lists - I used to do this a lot for the Glorious General when I did all our requisitions - but I always enjoyed the face-to-face meetings with our suppliers. Which, I will say, happened a lot more with Phil after he questioned one of my requisitions, and I handed him the typed forms in triplicate for what the legion needed. He started to file them, and I insisted on having my original (white) copy back, but he could keep the accounting copy (yellow) and send the vendor (pink) copy on to the supplier. Phil gave me a look that promised dire doings once he got us out of Khirgar, but you know... he never questioned any of my requisitions ever again. Did get some very nice meetings out of it, too...

Carbon paper. It's a wonderful thing. Totally obsolete technology - I don't know if you can even get it, anymore - but I figured that if was good enough to win the Second World War, it was good enough for us...