Thread: Questioning chirine ba kal

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

Understood. I'm still trying to chart the rocks and shoals in modern gaming, ahead of my very first 'real' D&D game in two weeks. I think I'm a little gun-shy from some of the responses I've had from people who didn't take well to D&D 4.0. (A game system which still baffles me, no matter how many times I've read it...)

You mean you haven't played OD&D despite knowing Dave, Gary and Phil? I find that hard to believe.

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

Understood! Your play style is what works for you and your players, and I am very happy to get to look in at that. My concern is being a boring old fart...

See again the number of views, Uncle!

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

Same here. I was issued with an M16A1 in Basic, and we were told many lurid and scary stories of how badly the things worked in typical field conditions by the cadre NCOs, who were all combat veterans. Luckily for me, the ancient M3 'grease gun' was still being issued as the stock close-in weapon in armor, and they are just impossible to mess up. As a demo, one of the cadre immersed one in a pool of liquid mud, and fired off an entire magazine down-range while under the surface with no stoppages. Guess what we all wanted to carry, after that?

Hence Chirine's preference for a nice solid mace, most of the time. No moving parts, easy to clean, and quite effective. Yeah, the big two-hander was nice for the big open-field fights, but give me a mace or a short sword for getting up close and personal in tight spaces.

For the record, if anyone wants the information, the usual load-out hung on the armor was:

Two-handed sword, over the shoulder on a baldric; short sword (a khepesh, actually) on the left hip; long triangular dagger on the right hip; two shorter daggers, on the belt in the small of the back on either side of the belt pouch; two even smaller throwing-knives / daggers in a concealed sheath on the inner face of the belt pouch; +4+5 mace in the right hand, buckler in the left, to be switched off as needed.

One learned to be prepared, with Phil, and to always have a little something in reserve. We'd have carried a pouch full of grenades, if they'd been invented. Phil, on one of his better nights, was awesomely lethal. Heck, I would have carried a bazooka, if we'd found one...

He's well-prepared indeed!
I prefer axes or warhammers, but his choice of swords is almost like what I would use.

Originally Posted by Gronan of Simmerya

You know, a series of coffee table books with gorgeous artwork and some explanatory notes isn't the worst presentation I could think of for Tekumel.

I'd like to see that, too.

Originally Posted by David Johansen

Thanks,

The thing is that it's this big, vibrant world and most people can't be dragged into reading even one page of exposition let alone ten. I find rpgs work best with broad and obvious settings. But National Geographic style pictures and maps and factoids can suck people in where no amount of text would. I'm not sure who could do the art Frank Frazetta of course but maybe that Tony Dizliteri or Charles Vess.

Jeff Dee?

[QUOTE=chirine ba kal;930438]I agree with you, here, and this is something I talked to Phil about from the beginning. I pointed out that games / rules come and go, depending on fashion, and that he might find it more viable to concentrate on the world-setting aspects that made Tekumel unique./QUOTE]
Yeah, there are systemless settings out there. Tekumel deserves the same treatment, really.

Originally Posted by David Johansen

I think the thing is that most people didn't play the game Gygax and Arneson wrote. They used bits and pieces and tended to run more character-focused-narrative games. In my experience the use of reaction rolls, henchmen and hirelings, and even domain building are pretty rare in actual practice.

There's also bad and inexperienced DMs and players who lack the emotional maturity to play a game that isn't focussed on their uber hero crushing everything in its path. And therein, I believe lies the source of the problem. Gygax and Arneson were experienced wargamers and dare I say it fully functional, mature, adults. Most people's experience with D&D is the result of playing with a fourteen year old DM who hasn't read the rules, hasn't read the module, and thinks he gets to win by killing the party.

I haven't been there to see it, but from people sharing their experiences on forums, I suspected something like that as well!

Having started at 9 and having read the rules, I was there for it in many times and places.

Heck, I was the bad DM many times myself.

Some would tell you I still am a bad DM.

As for Jeff Dee, no offense to the guy but he isn't the artist he was 30 years ago (being busy with adult stuff will do that) and he never really was a color guy. Still, I expect if we could pay him to just draw and paint for a year, I think he'd do well.

Originally Posted by David Johansen

Having started at 9 and having read the rules, I was there for it in many times and places.

Heck, I was the bad DM many times myself.

Some would tell you I still am a bad DM.

Hey, I started at 18, and I still wasn't a good Referee when I started. It's a trade you learn.
Admittedly, I've seen some people that didn't need to be taught. They're the exception.

As for Jeff Dee, no offense to the guy but he isn't the artist he was 30 years ago (being busy with adult stuff will do that) and he never really was a color guy. Still, I expect if we could pay him to just draw and paint for a year, I think he'd do well.

Well, I'm asking because he's got a Tekumel license.
Maybe you could suggest it to him.

I'm afraid I don't know him and haven't really bought anything from him since TWERPS. I wanted to back the new Villains and Vigilantes but couldn't really justify the expense at the time. I'll probably buy it when it comes out. I might pick up Bethorm too. I wish there was better distribution for retailers on stuff. I can't risk money on kickstarters that won't fulfill and I certainly can't drop more than a couple hundred dollars on any kickstarter. SJG was really smart when they made the retailer level 3 copies and a GM screen at $75. Too many kickstarters put it in the $500 to $1000 range and frankly most retailers can't afford to tie up money for six months to a year on a small chance the delivered product will sell.

Well, maybe not you. But maybe someone, no matter who, could suggest it to him?

The number one best scenario would be to use MARB's drawings themselves, but I don't know whether this is likely to happen.

I agree with the point David J made about the game getting into the mitts of 14 year olds.

Alas, what is good for sales isn't always the best thing for a certain vision of the game. TSR made a conscious decision to sell to kids (source: Jim Ward) because teenage kids have a huge share of disposable income.

That decision is directly responsible for both the huge boom in sales and, in my opinion, most of the complaints about the game.

Originally Posted by David Johansen

I think the thing is that most people didn't play the game Gygax and Arneson wrote. They used bits and pieces and tended to run more character-focused-narrative games. In my experience the use of reaction rolls, henchmen and hirelings, and even domain building are pretty rare in actual practice.

There's also bad and inexperienced DMs and players who lack the emotional maturity to play a game that isn't focussed on their uber hero crushing everything in its path. And therein, I believe lies the source of the problem. Gygax and Arneson were experienced wargamers and dare I say it fully functional, mature, adults. Most people's experience with D&D is the result of playing with a fourteen year old DM who hasn't read the rules, hasn't read the module, and thinks he gets to win by killing the party.

No, the rules can't cure asshole but they can't create grown-ups either. I think Palladium's success with the younger crowd is a clear point of data here. Characters that start with an average of 50hp (30 SDC + 10 PE + 4 + Physical Skill bonuses), don't die as easily. The Strike, Parry, Dodge system is flat out brilliant, easy to learn, easy to play, and constrained to a functional modifier range. Palladium "broadened the sweet spot" and "bounded accuracy" in the early nineteen eighties. I still think Palladium's system was a major model for the changes in fourth edition D&D. I'm equally sure the designers wouldn't admit it on the rack while having molten lead poured on them.

On the other side of things:

As I've said before, the rigidity of people's brand name miniatures for the game mindset baffles me. I can get it from a store's perspective, companies like Games Workshop give a bigger discount for higher volume. I carry Battlefront's Flames of War but when I started out I had one little distributor who's since gone under and he carried The Plastic Soldier Company who make nice little kits and carry some really nice Russian kits at half to a third of the price of Battlefront. At the time Battlefront had a stug and a Sherman in plastic and the Sherman required extensive trimming and three spring clamps to assemble. Everything else was in resin and metal. Now Battle Front has a very nice plastic range, though their troops are closer to 1/87 than 1/100. The PSC half tracks have passenger figures that fit on the benches when the whole thing's assembled. But I don't bring in PSC anymore. The reason is simply that it undermines my sales of more expensive Battlefront products. Recently there've been rumours that the other stores are thinking about carrying Flames of War. If they do I may think about carrying PSC and letting Battlefront go. It'll depend on if they're ordering from Battlefront and doing a good job of stocking it or just ordering odds and ends through Diamond. In the latter case I'm all for it, I'll clean up when their customers start coming in looking for all the stuff Diamond can't get them because Diamond only carries core product and new releases and seldom stocks anything with any depth.

But yeah, there's plenty of reasons a retailer wouldn't let people use off brand figures. Though there's still the problem of on-line discounters and ebay purchases. I know they drive the local GW retailer nuts. But as you guys have learned, people will take everything they can get for free, badmouth you behind your back, and run to the new guy down the block when he offers a 1% discount.

Agreed on all your points about D&D. Very true, from what I've seen over the years.

And I do understand the retailer's problems, too, and I certainly don't mind restrictions on things for use in tournaments and such. What I'm baffled by is the need for everything to be branded, and 'officially authorized approved for game play'. My FLGS just dumped a huge stock of 'generic' miniatures (ancients and early medievals) at a 75% discount off retail as they simply don't sell as people don't seem to play 'generic' games anymore. You either have a 'brand identity' or you're nowhere on the shelves. The FLGS has been talking about having me come in and do a 'miniatures day', as I usually can generate some pretty good sales, but I don't know if it would work any more.

Originally Posted by AsenRG

You mean you haven't played OD&D despite knowing Dave, Gary and Phil? I find that hard to believe.

See again the number of views, Uncle!

He's well-prepared indeed!
I prefer axes or warhammers, but his choice of swords is almost like what I would use.

Nope; they didn't use their own rules all that much.

Well, I worry. I feel like I'm writing from the Elephants' Graveyard, a lot of the time...

If I had a decent poll-axe, I'd carry one. I like the reach range, plus the variety of hitting surfaces the things usually have. I'm not a big fan of pole arms for the individual, as I think they work best as part of a group effort. They are effective, especially as a second-rankers' weapon, but I don't like having somebody get inside my reach range and leaving me with what amounts to a bathroom plunger as a weapon. Same thing with a two-hander; the Missus got me a broadsword with a two-handed hilt, and I like that a lot; short enough not to get hung up in the arras, hits hard enough to show that you mean business.

Yeah, systemless would have been a lot better, in the long run...

First, another +1 for minis and models. I play war games and RPGs, thank you. The line between the two blurs at some point, anyway.

Got another temple question. Is there a rough price list for what temples will charge for various services? Like, Alleviating the poison coursing through you is X kaitars, but Revivifying you is Y. Identify that Eye for you for X, recharging it Y. If you are member you get a discount, if your Temple is an ally, you get a smaller one, but a rival Temple is double, kind of thing. There are some prices listed in some of the rules for a few spells but not all.