Thread: Questioning chirine ba kal

Originally Posted by Shemek hiTankolel

I'm not if this has been mentioned elsewhere, but I see S&G v.2 Players Handbook has been released on Drivethru RPG.

Shemek.

I'm told that this is a hard-cover reprint of the Lou Zocchi / Gamescience edition that Sarah Prince typeset and I keylined while at Adventure Games; Phil was so upset at the way Lou had done S&S I that he talked Arneson into doing S&G II for Lou. Lou, for his part, was not very pleased; he'd gotten the idea that Phil was doing an updated version of EPT, and not an entirely new game that was going to be a huge tome (945 pages, in the incomplete manuscript.) Lou and Phil fell out over this, which was one of the reasons why S&G III was never finished. Phil then approached Dave about publishing the entire game, and Dave simply balked. S&G was never actually play-tested, as far as I know, and we only used little bits of II out at Phil's. I, on the other hand, we used constantly.

I have to say that from a marketing standpoint, republication of this thirty-year old book is a little odd; it puts the 'in-house product' in direct competition with one's major licensee and the new RPG that they did. I would have out the resources and effort into republishing Phil's novels, myself, as I would have thought they they'd be of more interest to gamers interested in Tekumel.

Originally Posted by AsenRG

Thank you, Lord Shemek!

Wait, what is that 32 page summary? And why are there 2 more, 16 pages each?

These would be the 'Combat' and 'Sorcery' Summaries, which are digest versions of the actual game mechanics. Phil did these after Dave Arneson told him that the rules were, quote, "unplayable and too complicated". By themselves, they make for a nice easy-to-play set of RPG rules, and they were pretty much what we used for rules out at Phil's when he bothered to use any formal rules at all.

I'm still baffled by S&G as a game. S&G I is priceless as a reference, but S&G II is simply baroque in terms of game mechanics. When I was keylining it, the sentence "Reach range of the character is determined by the width of the base frontage of the figure..." simply stunned me; the thing is, if you use all the rules, the world's largest and most complex miniatures skirmish game. S&G III, at least in the manuscript that I have, sort of heads back into RPG territory.

I would still suggest to people that they get EPT as their introductory game, and "Bethorm" as the advanced game. Both work quite well, and are complete games in and of themselves. S&G, as a game, is still incomplete after all this time, and still very hard to use in actual game play. Lots of very useful elements, though.

Originally Posted by Hrugga

Thank you. Just wondering if you can remember off hand any names used to refer to ancient technology in game, such as "life-stones" and "dumb box", etc? Thanks.

H:0)

Ah. 'Power rod", 'Lightning-bringer', 'air-car', 'tubeway car', 'AI', 'picture box', 'floater', 'grav-lift', 'lift shaft', and similar terms. We were all SF fans, so we tended to use the 'usual terminology' current in SF in the late 1970s and early 1980s. We did not use 'droid' or 'phaser'; using terms from either "Star Wars" or "Star Trek" really annoyed Phil, and he'd be quite vocal about suggesting that one needed to broaden their reading material. He was quite upfront about preferring what he referred to as 'the classics' of 1930s and 1940s SF.

Does this help, at all?

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

These would be the 'Combat' and 'Sorcery' Summaries, which are digest versions of the actual game mechanics. Phil did these after Dave Arneson told him that the rules were, quote, "unplayable and too complicated". By themselves, they make for a nice easy-to-play set of RPG rules, and they were pretty much what we used for rules out at Phil's when he bothered to use any formal rules at all.

I'm still baffled by S&G as a game. S&G I is priceless as a reference, but S&G II is simply baroque in terms of game mechanics. When I was keylining it, the sentence "Reach range of the character is determined by the width of the base frontage of the figure..." simply stunned me; the thing is, if you use all the rules, the world's largest and most complex miniatures skirmish game. S&G III, at least in the manuscript that I have, sort of heads back into RPG territory.

I would still suggest to people that they get EPT as their introductory game, and "Bethorm" as the advanced game. Both work quite well, and are complete games in and of themselves. S&G, as a game, is still incomplete after all this time, and still very hard to use in actual game play. Lots of very useful elements, though.

That's what I would be doing. The 2nd tome is just something I want to have, even if I end up using only the first, which I've had for a while now, or probably the first and the summary of the system.

So, the 32-page summary is just the two 16-pages summaries combined, is that so?

Originally Posted by Hrugga

Ahh! I will have to go back to Galactic Patrol and Gray Lensman for some terms.

Thanks again,

H:0)

Exactly! Have fun!

Originally Posted by AsenRG

That's what I would be doing. The 2nd tome is just something I want to have, even if I end up using only the first, which I've had for a while now, or probably the first and the summary of the system.

So, the 32-page summary is just the two 16-pages summaries combined, is that so?

Understood, and agreed. As a resource that gives some idea of how Phil thought his world should work, it can't be beat; there are all sorts of little asides and tidbits in there, buried in the game mechanics, and that are actually pretty illuminating.

I would guess so; I already have a half-dozed copies of the original, plus all of the later versions, so I won't be picking up this version.

Originally Posted by Hrugga

HappyBirthdayFiruBaYaker!!!

Yes, indeed! And I miss Dave and Gary, too; they were quite the trio...

Originally Posted by Hrugga

HappyBirthdayFiruBaYaker!!!

Really? Happy Birthday, FiruBa Yaker!

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

Understood, and agreed. As a resource that gives some idea of how Phil thought his world should work, it can't be beat; there are all sorts of little asides and tidbits in there, buried in the game mechanics, and that are actually pretty illuminating.

I would guess so; I already have a half-dozed copies of the original, plus all of the later versions, so I won't be picking up this version.

Thanks, than it's good for my purposes! I feel confident I'd be able to find out most of these.
Then I'll keep using my Bethorm-based system. (There's a point where, after enough-houserules, I just call systems "based on X", and that point is rapidly approaching).