Thread: Questioning chirine ba kal

Originally Posted by Gronan of Simmerya

Viz rigging, have you tried the elastic thread that's sold for stringing telegraph wires on model railroads? Same idea, prevents devastation when this huge giant reaches into the scene to open the coupler.

Yes, I did. The issue is that the pesky player-characters (as Phil was wont to describe us) tend to ruin the rigging by blasting away the masts and yards, causing a huge mess on deck and over the side. I used to build my ships with fixed masts and yards, but now everything is removable both for ease in transport and for better access in play. I'm going back and refitting the older ships to this standard, as well, but it does take time (and brass tubing) so I'm still in the process.

See also Chirine's First Law Of Miniatures: "No matter how well you detail or paint the thing, you'll always be able to find somebody who can drop it on the floor for you."

Originally Posted by Shemek hiTankolel

I think I read something about this clan once long ago, but can't recall exactly what it was... Could you elaborate on this please?


Shemek

They are the Clan of the Striding Incantation, and they do the little (and presumably magical) puppets that can be see at very high-class parties in the major cities. The puppets act out epic tales and funny comedies, and while a puppeteer is present, they never touch or manipulate the puppets in any physical way. It is considered a huge mark of high social status to get them to come and perform at one's party; they do not accept casual invitations, and you really do have to 'be somebody' and of a very good and respectable clan to have them even reply to you. They will do public performances, on very high holidays, and people will come for hundreds of miles to see the puppets perform. Nobody knows how they do any of this; it's an ancient secret of the clan. There is a faint aura of sorcery around after one of their performances, but that's all anyone knows. For that matter, nobody knows what gods they worship, either; they are very private, and very secretive.

Unique amongst clans, their clan colors are the Engsvanyali imperial white and gold, with trims in regional colors - but no deity colors that anyone knows about. Howard Fielding did a wonderful set of a puppeteer, puppets, and delighted children by the way.

They are considered to be inviolate, as they were a feature of the Priest-Kings court on Ganga, and nobody with any brains treats them rudely or improperly. They are a very tiny clan, but have very powerful friends at all levels of society. Messing with them is usually considered to be a huge insult to society as a whole, and society tends to react very badly to the insult.

When I was Governor of Hekellu, we had an incident of this sort, and I simply dropped by the offender's clan house with my guards and the local heads of the Black Y Society and Ndalu Clans. The problem was dealt with in short order, and the offender was last seen heading for Pechano to help you fight the Ssu. I think they might have given him a dagger, too, but he certainly left town in a very real hurry...

Originally Posted by Greentongue

It seems like one of the things that would be in all the supplements and I just haven't seen enough of.
=

Agreed. We learned lot about this from Phil as we went along, but it certainly didn't make it into the published literature - back in our time, and continuing up to now, the emphasis has been on the very 'gamey' aspects of Tekumel. Monsters, new character classes, game mechanics, and rules have dominated the discussions over the years, and social activities like this have tended not to have 'legs' with gamers. No interest by what has been the bulk of the audience meant no publication, as the financial barriers to publishing have been so high until now.

I'm fascinated by your comment; "To Serve The Petal Throne" has a lot of this exact kind of material in it, as this was a very important part of our games with Phil. And it may be why the folks over on the Tekumel Yahoo group don't like it, as it does not have any system- or rules- specific material in it. You get me sitting down and talking to a clan elder, not a set of tables for gaming that encounter. Self-described 'OSR people', over the years, have been all about rules and mechanics and not a lot about the world-setting; we, on the other hand, were all about the world-setting and not very much about the rules or mechanics.

So, in some sense, what we did in the original Thursday Night Group does not seem to resonate much with the larger gaming hobby; I've been told that we're 'irrelevant' to gaming, as we didn't generate enough rules and mechanics and did too much cultural stuff. That may be as is, but I'm writing an account of our adventures, not an RPG. I figure that people reading the thing can do their own games - as Phil said, "Here's my Tekumel, now make it yours..."

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

1.This topic created a very lively and interesting discussion between Zirunel and I over on the Tekumel Yahoo group; I strongly recommend his booklet on naval matters( downloadable from his blog), by the way. He, quite logically, raised the question of why there isn't a corpora of longer-ranged naval spells, reaching out beyond the usual range of battlefield spells. I replied that for Phil, his model of naval warfare was the Greek-Roman one, especially as seen in the movies "Ben Hur" and "Cleopatra"; since spells are limited to line-of-sight, and pretty much as far as an unaided human eye can see, there's no real way (in Tekumelyani terms) to come up with more effective 'naval artillery'. Spells are limited out to a kilometer or two, at least in Phil's usual practice. he rule of thumb was that "if you can see it, you can try to hit it". Phil was quite upfront that sorcery is not the decisive weapon in battle; it's usually people at close quarters in melee.

2.Having said that, yes, you can have a legion's magic users afloat, but they aren't going to be all that effective; the ship's deck is tossing around, and the crew is messing about with the ropes, so the kind of group sorcery you'd see on land may be there but not very good - a lot of missed saving throws, if you like. They'd also be grouped on one larger ship, probably the squadron flagship.

3.For personal magic, use EPT as is; that's what Phil did, as you read about in my sinking of the pursuing nest ship. For larger scale battles, try my set of miniatures rules or Dave Sutherland's "Legions". These work better with the small scale ships; EPT works better with 28mm ships.

4.And don't think I haven't thought of a 28mm scale large sea fight; I have a 100' tape measure, and I know how to use it. Give me a stout ship, a big enough floor, and a moon to steer by...

Chirine,

1. Is that the Naval Warfare on Tekumel primer? If so I've looked at it and I was quite impressed with it. Very, very well done.
In the past I handled naval combat (ship to ship) along the same lines as Phil did, drawing heavily from the EPT Mass Combat rules and using Ben Hur as my primary inspiration. As a DM I really didn't want to have a situation where ships were being sunk from 2+ km away. For me this would be kind of boring and useless from an RPG point of view, unless it were a one off "Saturday Night Special" situation.
The reason I asked was to see if anything was out there that had been used and would offer a better and simpler way of resolving large scale naval battles. I have been working on a simple set of squadron/fleet rules for my game that I hope to try out soon, but if something already exists and works well why re-invent the wheel?

2. That makes sense. I don't see triremes as being the most stable of platforms.

3. Makes sense. EPT is a very flexible system and one that I have had a lot of success adapting and modifying over the years. I currently use a home brew magic system for my games that consists of the EPT rules, with the S&G spell lists (converted to EPT), and a fair amount of 1e AD&D spells as well (which, not surprisingly, required a hell of a lot less work to bring over to the EPT rules).
Unfortunately, getting a hold of the rules you mentioned is difficult and or expensive. I missed them the first time around and have been on the look out for them, at a reasonable price, for years. I'll just have to wait until you release the updated 2nd edition of Qadradalikoi.

4. I'd love to see that, and be a participant. Sounds like it would be an absolute blast!

Shemek

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

They are the Clan of the Striding Incantation, and they do the little (and presumably magical) puppets that can be see at very high-class parties in the major cities. The puppets act out epic tales and funny comedies, and while a puppeteer is present, they never touch or manipulate the puppets in any physical way. It is considered a huge mark of high social status to get them to come and perform at one's party; they do not accept casual invitations, and you really do have to 'be somebody' and of a very good and respectable clan to have them even reply to you. They will do public performances, on very high holidays, and people will come for hundreds of miles to see the puppets perform. Nobody knows how they do any of this; it's an ancient secret of the clan. There is a faint aura of sorcery around after one of their performances, but that's all anyone knows. For that matter, nobody knows what gods they worship, either; they are very private, and very secretive.

Unique amongst clans, their clan colors are the Engsvanyali imperial white and gold, with trims in regional colors - but no deity colors that anyone knows about. Howard Fielding did a wonderful set of a puppeteer, puppets, and delighted children by the way.

They are considered to be inviolate, as they were a feature of the Priest-Kings court on Ganga, and nobody with any brains treats them rudely or improperly. They are a very tiny clan, but have very powerful friends at all levels of society. Messing with them is usually considered to be a huge insult to society as a whole, and society tends to react very badly to the insult.

When I was Governor of Hekellu, we had an incident of this sort, and I simply dropped by the offender's clan house with my guards and the local heads of the Black Y Society and Ndalu Clans. The problem was dealt with in short order, and the offender was last seen heading for Pechano to help you fight the Ssu. I think they might have given him a dagger, too, but he certainly left town in a very real hurry...

Thanks for the information. This sounds like fun. I've saved this message to the campaign file for future use in the game.

Pechano you say, huh? Well next time I go to Mechaneno I'll be sure and have a quite word with the Chaegosh about him. If you would be so kind as to send the particulars I'll make certain that he is included in the next expedition into Ssuyal, positioned right in the most prestigious front rank. I think this would be suitable for such a noble person. Ne?

Shemek

From Shemek hiTankolel -

1. Is that the Naval Warfare on Tekumel primer? If so I've looked at it and I was quite impressed with it. Very, very well done.

Yes, that's it. I think that it is the definitive work on the subject, myself; very carefully researched, and very accurately written.

In the past I handled naval combat (ship to ship) along the same lines as Phil did, drawing heavily from the EPT Mass Combat rules and using Ben Hur as my primary inspiration. As a DM I really didn't want to have a situation where ships were being sunk from 2+ km away. For me this would be kind of boring and useless from an RPG point of view, unless it were a one off "Saturday Night Special" situation.
The reason I asked was to see if anything was out there that had been used and would offer a better and simpler way of resolving large scale naval battles. I have been working on a simple set of squadron/fleet rules for my game that I hope to try out soon, but if something already exists and works well why re-invent the wheel?

Agreed. I can always play "Harpoon" or "Clear For Action", if I want long-range mayhem. Phil just didn't think his world worked that way, and kept telling us to see the movies if we wanted to know how it worked. He loved the battle of Actium, in the "Cleopatra" epic, although he regarded the rest of the movie as a not-very-historical 'guilty pleasure'.

I've used both "Bireme and Galley" from FUG as well as a set of historical rules "Naumachi" (I think; spelling might be off) for the ship handling; "Qadardalikoi" has very simple rules, which is one of the reasons why I'm redoing them. Alva Hardison also has a set of naval rules in the works, I'm told.

I like to have the players move their ships around on a big sheet of plotting paper, plotting their courses and using the small-scale ships I have. Once they get into boarding range, then the big ships get put out on the main table. Seems to work, especially when the players forget that the sailing ships don't have brakes. Now that I have the ocean tiles for the game table (see my blog about this) I'll be doing the small scale actions on these. The TRE Games small (1/900?) biremes and triremes are perfect for this. (I like the JR Miniatures islands for this, as well; lots of 'terrain' to hide behind and oar out to pounce on the unwary...)

2. That makes sense. I don't see triremes as being the most stable of platforms.

This is constantly being talked about in the reports of the sea trials of "Olympias", where the rowing crew keeps yelling at the people on deck to sit down and stay still; apparently, the movement of as few one or two of the soliders on deck will cause the ship to heel, causing the rowers to lose the stroke.

Lots of footage of "Olympias" on YouTube, too.

3. Makes sense. EPT is a very flexible system and one that I have had a lot of success adapting and modifying over the years. I currently use a home brew magic system for my games that consists of the EPT rules, with the S&G spell lists (converted to EPT), and a fair amount of 1e AD&D spells as well (which, not surprisingly, required a hell of a lot less work to bring over to the EPT rules).

This is exactly what Phil did in our games, and I still do.

Unfortunately, getting a hold of the rules you mentioned is difficult and or expensive. I missed them the first time around and have been on the look out for them, at a reasonable price, for years. I'll just have to wait until you release the updated 2nd edition of Qadradalikoi.

Let me dig around; now that my entire set of archives is digitized, I have spare paper copies of everything. I'll also see how to get an electronic copy of the manuscript to you, as I certainly can use play-testers!

4. I'd love to see that, and be a participant. Sounds like it would be an absolute blast!

Naval battles have always been screamingly funny affairs, and I think this one would top them all for sheer fun. If somebody ever organized 'Chirine Con', it'd be one of the main events. Such would be my opinion, anyway.

My all time favorite (to date) naval fight was between a Tsolyani and a Mu'uglavyani squadron off Ngashtu Head. I would not allow table talk, but gave the two sides sets of map flags and brass wire for their signal halyards. The result was utter chaos, as one side did not distribute written copies of the flag codes that they were using to their ships' captains. The results were simply beyond my imagination.

(I have a post up today on my blog about building the TRE Games trireme, by the way...)

Originally Posted by Shemek hiTankolel

Thanks for the information. This sounds like fun. I've saved this message to the campaign file for future use in the game.

Pechano you say, huh? Well next time I go to Mechaneno I'll be sure and have a quite word with the Chaegosh about him. If you would be so kind as to send the particulars I'll make certain that he is included in the next expedition into Ssuyal, positioned right in the most prestigious front rank. I think this would be suitable for such a noble person. Ne?

Shemek

You're welcome! I'll look up the particulars and get them to you.

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

Agreed. We learned lot about this from Phil as we went along, but it certainly didn't make it into the published literature - back in our time, and continuing up to now, the emphasis has been on the very 'gamey' aspects of Tekumel. Monsters, new character classes, game mechanics, and rules have dominated the discussions over the years, and social activities like this have tended not to have 'legs' with gamers. No interest by what has been the bulk of the audience meant no publication, as the financial barriers to publishing have been so high until now.

I'm fascinated by your comment; "To Serve The Petal Throne" has a lot of this exact kind of material in it, as this was a very important part of our games with Phil. And it may be why the folks over on the Tekumel Yahoo group don't like it, as it does not have any system- or rules- specific material in it. You get me sitting down and talking to a clan elder, not a set of tables for gaming that encounter. Self-described 'OSR people', over the years, have been all about rules and mechanics and not a lot about the world-setting; we, on the other hand, were all about the world-setting and not very much about the rules or mechanics.

So, in some sense, what we did in the original Thursday Night Group does not seem resonate much with the larger gaming hobby; I've been told that we're 'irrelevant' to gaming, as we didn't generate enough rules and mechanics and did too much cultural stuff. That may be as is, but I'm writing an account of our adventures, not an RPG. I figure that people reading the thing can do their own games - as Phil said, "Here's my Tekumel, now make it yours..."

Different strokes for different folks I guess. I also am far more interested in the setting than any particular rule-set or game mechanic. I use EPT and AD&D, (and now LotFP) simply because the players in my group are most comfortable with these type of gaming mechanics. In my experience, and opinion, any set of game rules can be used to run a campaign on Tekumel. All that's needed is a bit of tweaking. Personally, I think that as far as Tekumel goes rules really should be of secondary concern. As for relevance, well this thread clearly disproves that assertion.

Shemek

Originally Posted by Shemek hiTankolel

Different strokes for different folks I guess. I also am far more interested in the setting than any particular rule-set or game mechanic. I use EPT and AD&D, (and now LotFP) simply because the players in my group are most comfortable with these type of gaming mechanics. In my experience, and opinion, any set of game rules can be used to run a campaign on Tekumel. All that's needed is a bit of tweaking. Personally, I think that as far as Tekumel goes rules really should be of secondary concern. As for relevance, well this thread clearly disproves that assertion.

Shemek

Agreed. It's what works as play style in the group, I think. And you're right; any set of RPG rules will do just fine, I think, which is why I don't much worry about them.

Re relevance, I would hope so. I'm hoping that people can take away some stuff that they can use in their campaigns, no matter what the world-setting might be. Or, to mis-quote a previous poster, "Over 80,000 views of this bullshit? Really?"

Gronan and I are survivors of a time and place in gaming history when game play was the thing, and fun games the objective; how we got there was nowhere nearly as important as the journey. As I've said before, I'll be here to answer questions as long as people want to ask them. What you do with the answers is really up to you...