Thread: Questioning chirine ba kal

Originally Posted by Greentongue

How much do people know about creatures of the Underworld?

Would people know the difference between a demon and a "normal" monster or is there no real difference?
=

Ordinary people, very little; this is the stuff of legend and nightmare. 'Professionals' and 'educated' people, quite a lot, and of course the relevant Temples a whole lot.

No, not really; see above. As for a difference, 'demons' are beings from other planes, and not 'normal'; temple-educated people would know the difference.

Originally Posted by Hrugga

Okay, thank you. Uncle, another question regarding buying and selling goods. In general, how does it work? I understand that certain clans have certain specialities. As far as selling their goods where is this done? Cities have bazaar style locations where people can shop, so do clans have stalls? Some clanhouses have storefronts as part of their house. Do clans have seperate stores not physically part of the clanhouse in another part of the city? I believe I have asked a similar question in the past, but I am still not entirely clear on the subject.

In the clanhouse of the Iron Plume in Jakalla there is a room marked booksellers and copyists. I would imagine that one could make a appointment or maybe show up during "business hours" and buy books...I would think other clans would do the same. Depending on the items purchased it would be easier to be as discreet as possible. Uncle your insight would be helpful. Thank you as always.

H:0)

Generally, one has several ways to buy things. First, one can let the clan know that one needs or wants something, and in effect 'put in a requisition'. Very high or very busy people can do this, but one should expect to pay a premium for the 'order processing, 'shipping and handling', etc. Normally, one goes to do one's shopping by going off the the appropriate quarter of the city, and looking over the wares on offer. One can certainly make appointments; one would let the clan's major-domo know what one was looking for, and that worthy would provide a list of places to go and people to see, as well as one of their staff to go with you to make sure you found everything. One normally favors the clans and people with whom the clan has regular dealings, or with somebody who comes with the right introduction from one's own clan or a friendly clan - "I don't have that in my shop, lord, but I know a family that might..." (The polite shopper always leaves a little gift, in return for that kind of thing, too.)

So, one goes to the marketplace. Different quarters of the city have different markets; one has the grocers, one the booksellers, and so on. As you mention, quite a few sellers have their shops attached to their clan houses, and others have stalls out in the open plaza - under awnings, of course= and some do have separate shops. Some of the stalls have been in that particular clan and family for years - on some cases, a whole lot of years! One is invited in to rest one's weary feet, get out of the hot sun, away from the wind, and so on; one is made to feel like a guest, and is treated to light refreshments; after a decent interval of discussion of family, can, temple, and so on one is shown samples of the merchandise one might be inclined to buy, and the bargaining begins. Eventually, a price is settled on, farewells are made, and one moves on to the next shop or stall.
There are also street vendors, selling both goods and light 'snacks', and some of these have been 'working that street' for generations.

'Shopping' is as much a social occasion as it is getting something. the notion of 'just popping in for a whatever' isn't there; that kind of brisk 'in and out' is usually handled behind the scenes by one's servants.

Places are open during the day or by appointment, depending on the merchandise; more rare and expensive goods are not on display, but must be seen in private showings. Your example, the bookseller, may allow a regular (and wealthy!) customer into the copyists' room, but normally they would be allowed into the courtyard (if lower status) or entertained in the common rooms (if higher).

Does this help?

Originally Posted by Neshm hiKumala

Sorry to barge in like that, in the middle of this excellent discussion on how strict inter-clan relations are on a day-to-day basis (hint: not very), but I stumbled upon this up-coming game: The Chronicles of Future Earth, by the brilliant Sarah Newton.

Check out the cover:

Attachment 424

Imagine Tekumel illustrated like that, along with a book containing some of the demystifying wisdom found on this thread, like the current discussion on how flexible so-called "strict inter-clan relations" actually are.

Newton wrote a thoughtful note on Tekumel on the occasion of Professor Barker's passing. Some of you may already have read it. You can find it here.

She too agrees that publishing a series of good adventures or a even a large campaign set on Tekumel would go a long way in helping the world get more traction with the public. That and the sort of illustration she managed to get for her science-fantasy setting, I guess.

Newton, though not an OSR writer, is a pretty good game designer. I've reviewed some of her stuff.

In keeping with the clan theme I also have some questions. How many people would you say live in a "typical" Low/Medium status Tsolyani clan house? Would the rural clan houses be similar to the urban ones, in layout and purpose?
Are the slaves typically "locked up" or "chained up" for the night, or is there basically an understanding between the owner and slave -"You try and escape and I make life very uncomfortable for you, or I'll kill you." Are there slave quarters or do they bed down wherever they can, or is it closer to the way it was with household slaves in Ancient Rome?

Shemek

Originally Posted by Shemek hiTankolel

In keeping with the clan theme I also have some questions. How many people would you say live in a "typical" Low/Medium status Tsolyani clan house? Would the rural clan houses be similar to the urban ones, in layout and purpose?
Are the slaves typically "locked up" or "chained up" for the night, or is there basically an understanding between the owner and slave -"You try and escape and I make life very uncomfortable for you, or I'll kill you." Are there slave quarters or do they bed down wherever they can, or is it closer to the way it was with household slaves in Ancient Rome?

Shemek

Right. Clan houses can range from a single family unit up to multiple units with residents and associated people in the hundreds. This is true for most clans, with urban clan houses usually being more concentrated in terms of the ground space they occupy and rural ones being more spread out. For urban compounds, think Meso-American residential complexes - what early explorers called 'palaces' or Ancient Egyptian town houses. For rural, think everything from single family houses with out buildings all the way up to the small villages of typical Roman 'villas' or Ancient Egyptian country houses. Lots of example of both on the web, and looking at South Asian equivalents would also be useful. Again, that's what Phil was familiar with - he started his career as a Meso=American anthropologist, then became a South Asian linguist. Rural clan houses tend to be more for agriculture or crafts; urban for crafts and trade. Urban clan houses can also be for purely residence purposes, with the working spaces elsewhere in the compound or elsewhere in the town / city.

(May I commend to your attention: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Padmanabhapuram_Palace

Slaves are normally housed in specific quarters, with the quarters being less sophisticated as as the status of the slave gets lower and lower. 'Household' slaves do sleep in the house, with decent quarters near the people that they serve; noble people never go into those areas of the house, if they can help it. Locking them up at night is rare; if one had a slave that needed this, one would sell them off or donate them to the Imperium - or to one's temple. The Imperium treats runaways very severely - if they are lucky, they get killed out of hand - and usually fines the owner for not properly training the slave to obey orders. As you mention, it's very well understood by both parties what the agreement is - the slave gets decent treatment, and the owner gets work. In return, neither causes trouble for the Imperium.

There have been slave revolts; Ferinara was the most recent one, and it was a very, very nasty business. The fief-holder got the idea that he could have his own private army by arming his slaves; I think he was hoping for Janissaries, and what he got was Spartacus. The Imperium promptly crushed the revolt, but it was a very bloody and very messy business. It's why Chirine does not own slaves; being murdered in one's bed does cause one a few problems.

Does this help?

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

Slaves are normally housed in specific quarters, with the quarters being less sophisticated as as the status of the slave gets lower and lower. 'Household' slaves do sleep in the house, with decent quarters near the people that they serve; noble people never go into those areas of the house, if they can help it. Locking them up at night is rare; if one had a slave that needed this, one would sell them off or donate them to the Imperium - or to one's temple. The Imperium treats runaways very severely - if they are lucky, they get killed out of hand - and usually fines the owner for not properly training the slave to obey orders. As you mention, it's very well understood by both parties what the agreement is - the slave gets decent treatment, and the owner gets work. In return, neither causes trouble for the Imperium.

In May, I was down in jungle of Cozumel and visited the Temple of Ixchel, the temple of the Mayan Goddess of the moon, fertility, medicine, and happiness. This is near the present small town of San Gervasio, located in the northern quadrant, about in the center of Cozumel about twenty miles into the Jungle. I had an extended and very enlightening conversation with my Mayan guide Nico (...except for the part where I wanted to talk about the underworld, we didn't end up talking very much about that, because he became very unhappy every time I brought that subject up) there. The Mayans are still very superstitious and continue to believe that you draw the spirits of the dead by traveling into the underworld, or even by speaking about the underworld. That's what he told me at least, before we quit talking about the underworld entirely.

We talked extensively about the Mayan slaves. He said they sent the slaves into the underworld unsupervised to work in the limestone mines. The Mayans had no wheels. They also had no pack animals at all. The dogs were too small, and Llamas don't do particularly well in a tropical jungle and tend to draw Jaguars because they are so stupid. In addition this was on an island off the coast of the Yucatan. What the Mayans did have is really good roads. The roads where straight without even a single curve, angle or jink, they were straight as an arrow. They were made mostly made out of the limestone that I mentioned earlier, and crushed limestone was packed over the limestone blocks, so the road was super smooth. Nico said they used slaves to transport trade goods and temple offerings because they also had lots of slaves.

While the Mayans practiced ritual human sacrifice, they wouldn't let the slaves be sacrificed. Only the best and brightest, to please the Gods, and Goddesses. The winning team of the hand ball games, great military or government leaders, exceptional priests, The best fighters, the best of their enemies fighters, only these people were good enough to appease the Gods. Slaves didn't rate.

He said that they send did their slaves to other cities, and had them carry the trade goods and offerings unescorted. They didn't even bother sending guards with their slaves. I was astonished. I asked him, "How could that be? What if they run away, or run off into the jungle." He just shrugged, and said "The Jaguars would get them, or they would die of starvation or the multitude of diseases,or poisonous food or snakes." He said "take your pick. They were much better off just by staying on the roads and doing their duty, finishing their task, and returning to their masters."

He told me that Mayan slaves were well fed, that they had decent living spaces. That they were free to pick which Gods or Goddesses they could pray to. Some of them were taught to read. Some of them were taught astronomy. They were allowed to marry whichever other slave they wanted. They could earn money in their spare time, raising crops or producing goods. For the most part it was simply inconceivable for a slave to rebel or escape. This was because of other than the labor, they often had a better quality of life than if they were living out in the Jungle with some wild tribe.

One other thing he mentioned was specifically about the Mayan merchants and the slave porters. He said the moonlight would illuminate the limestone road making it easy to see and travel through the night. Because it was so hot in the Jungle during the day, the Mayan slaves would wake up at dusk, and travel through the night, and then rest again in some shady place, after the sun came up. He said the routinely traveled 30-50 miles a night this way. If it was a runner, with just a message only, they could travel even faster, and the runners had relay stations setup along the side of the road, so that an important message was constantly in transit until it reached its' destination.

Somehow all the Mayan history books I have read, seemed to have missed most of this detail. I was amazed at how sophisticated and modern the Mayan Empire was. Reading, writing, trading networks,...a sophisticated system of roads, such gentle treatment of slaves, that they didn't even want to run away or rebel.

Just some historical commentary so that folks here could perhaps understand how the slaves of the Tsolyani would be able to live, in Tekumel.

Temple of Ixchel, Reference Images;
http://imgur.com/a/qGluO