Thread: Questioning chirine ba kal

Originally Posted by Neshm hiKumala

Question time:

It is known that Tsolyanis can change religious affiliation. They might be raised as worshipers of Avanthe for instance, but later choose to switch to some other temple, as they mature, or discover the world beyond the walls of their clan-houses, or meet worshipers from some other exciting sect, marriage perhaps, etc.

This would then suggest that baptisms of adult Tsolyanis are not unheard of (after the candidate's clan has approved the switch, etc.).
Did Chirine ever participate or witness such ceremonies? Did the professor ever discussed such ceremonies with you or the rest of the players?

I assume here that switching from one deity to another is easier if the new deity belongs to the original deity's pantheon, Change or Stability.

Yes, but it's pretty rare as there are all sorts of reasons to follow the traditions of family and clan. It does happen, and it's normally handled very politely and respectfully. One makes a gift to the temple one is 'leaving', and another to the temple that one is 'joining'; the appropriate paperwork with the Imperium is filled out, and that's pretty much it. One pretty much starts simply attending the new temple rituals, and it's also normal to attend 'basic classes' so one gets what information one needs to comport themselves in society. One also normally offers a gift to one's clan; it's polite to do so. Both temples have ceremonies, one for the 'departure' and one for the 'arrival'. One is expected to offer donations, of course.

No. We never saw this at Phil's, mostly because we were out adventuring in far corners of the world most of the time. We did hear about such events from time to time, but they were people that we didn't know. The exception was Princess Ma'in, but that was a 'forced' conversion with Tim Cox / Dutlor zapping her with an Eye - which got removed from the list before EPT was published - and as such caused a major scandal in polite society. The temples involved kinda just collectively rolled their eyes and got on with things.

Yes; also if the temples involved are of similar outlook - going from Avanthe to Dilinala and back is normal for those worshippers - and if it's between Gods and Cohorts. Belkhanu to Sarku (or the reverse), or Vimuhla to Karakan, etc. would be the usual, rather then anything 'radical'. Cross-alignment is less rare then going from one temple to a completely different one - Ksarul to Dra, for ezample. it does happen, but it's pretty rare from what we saw.

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

I think you're right; we did discuss this early on in this thread, but I'm not sure where. I can try and page back and look, if you like.

Phil didn't really worry about how our PCs advanced, once he felt that we were viable characters, able to survive in his world. This was about two years into our time as the original Thursday Night Group, as I recall; he had gotten much more into 'story-teller' mode then 'GM mode' by then, as he felt that he could trust us not to bust the place up and treat Tekumel with respect. His basic play style was to have all of us do the 'crunch' and 'book-keeping', as he was much more interested in the 'fluff' of his world-setting. 'The Rules' usually came out when we had to look at some question or point of order; we'd pretty much memorized EPT, by then. So, he'd hand out / confirm XP for the first couple of years, and then assumed that we'd do it - one would keep track of what one killed, and then 'award' oneself the relevant XP; once the totals were done, one would hand Phil the information and he'd usually confirm it - intellectual honesty was assumed to be the norm at that game table, and 'cheating' was just something that never happened - keep in mind that none of us we what would be called 'gamers', today; we were all F/SF fans, perhaps first and formost, and we just happened too be 'gaming' to explore the world. (See also Jon Peterson's "Playing At The World", and things like our costuming and such - we had a very different world-view and style, which quite a few of what have been termed the 'superfans' of Tekumel didn;t like or understand. We were very much outliers, waaaay off the 'mainstream' of gaming.)

So, Phil didn't really worry about The Rules; yes, we had stats sheets, and we were expected to have the numbers ready of Phil to use; he'd roll %D - we didn't say D100, in those days - and adjudicate the results according to the dice rolls. (This drove the visiting gamers simply mad, and made for some very unhappy visits as they got all cranky about this style of play.)

Once one had enough XP totted up on one's index card, one told Phil that one would like to 'level up' (I think that's how it's said, today) and then 'buy' skills or spells as one wished, 'spending' the accumulated points and crossing them off the card. One then noted down all of the new skills and abilities, and Phil would review the results and file the card back in the boxes. (One also kept a copy, of course.) And that was it, game mechanics wise. After a certain point, I don't think we even did that - our advancement was usually in the form of posts, positions, awards, fiefs, and titles; EPT only went up to '10th level', and anything after that was simply off the charts and Phil didn't worry about it. His play style was all about his word, telling storys, and having adventures - it was not about game mechanics.

In-game, we sometimes 'took leave', and 'went back to school' and took courses in skills and spells; the usual convention was that if a player wasn't going to be playing for a while, then they were off doing this and would have 'leveled up' during their absence. One could also hire tutors to do the same thing, and we'd do this in between adventures' we did not 'level up' during adventures / story arcs. So, yes, they'd 'go and train', but only when the player would not be at the table. If Gronan was off doing his MBA, then he'd come back to play with some new skill
Does this help, any? 'Levelling up' was not a feature of Phil's game play' we advanced in world-setting terms, more then anything else, which is why it takes the Chief Herald so long to recite all my varied titles and offices...

Perfect. Thank you, again.

Uncle, I have a question that came up lately, and well, while I have ideas, I'd hope you have something I haven't thought about.

How would the clans proceed if someone got killed during friendly combat practice, but his parents refused to accept the shamtla, suspecting foul play?
And how would the answer change, if the presumably involuntary murderer was from a slightly lower clan?

Originally Posted by AsenRG

Uncle, I have a question that came up lately, and well, while I have ideas, I'd hope you have something I haven't thought about.

How would the clans proceed if someone got killed during friendly combat practice, but his parents refused to accept the shamtla, suspecting foul play?
And how would the answer change, if the presumably involuntary murderer was from a slightly lower clan?

Oh! This is a very good question, and what our British cousins would call 'a very sticky wicket'.

First off, the possibility of getting killed in a practice bout is always there, so normally the guy who got killed would have to agree to the kind of weapons being used and how risky the practice bouts could be. If they did get hurt or killed, then it would be considered their problem, not the person doing the damage. There is no 'manslaughter' charge in the Tekumel lawbooks - it's either straight up murder or it's not. The parents saying that it was 'foul play' is basically accusing somebody of murder, and the clans involved would do everything possible to try and arbitrate the matter privately. They would both try very hard to keep the Imperium, as represented by the local government officials, out of the matter and settle 'out of court'. The clan of the person who killed the guy would be hugely insulted by the accusation, and may very well ask for shmatla of their own in return for the slight to their honor. The clan of the dead person would put a lot of pressure on the parents to accept the payment, and not insult anybody. My guess is that if the parents persisted in saying that it was foul play, a neutral third party would be brought in by both clans to investigate the matter and render a judgement. This is one of those situations where the Ndalu Clan gets called in, as they are about as neutral as it gets.

Both clans would have a fit if the parents filed a lawsuit in the courts, as this would bring in the Imperials to investigate, and nobody wants the OAL or even the locals poking around in the odd corners of the clan houses. The Imperium would also likely ask the clans to pay for the investigation and the court hearing, too. The official verdict, I'd venture to say, would be the same one that British courts have delivered for years - if not centuries! - in identical circumstances of 'death by misadventure', and get everyone to pay up. (This is a part of 'case law that happens to be well-know to Groan and I, due to our time in the re-enactment movement.)

The relative status of the clans involved would not change the situation; if anything, the higher status clan would be more discomfited by any scandal such as this and more eager to settle, as they would want to appear to be acting nobly. The parents would have to really prove their case, that it really was foul play, and probably get into trouble with the clan if they didn't.

Does this help?

Originally Posted by Shemek hiTankolel

Chirine,

One more question. How did Phil handle character level advancement, or did he not use levels, in the D&D/EPT sense in his game? If he ignored the traditional concept of levels, which I seem to recall you saying he did, how then did he handle character skill development? Would Phil decide that Chirine has been in a heck of a lot of combat over the last few game sessions and, based upon a roll, that your weapon skills have improved to such a degree that you are now more effective in combat? Similarly, did Chirine acquire more/new spells as the campaign progressed, and if so how was this handled in the game? Were the players required to go and train as is the case in EPT or D&D?

Shemek

At first it was quite important when Phil used the "barbarian on a boat" entrance; you didn't dare leave the Foreigner's Quarters alone before 3rd level, and you couldn't be a citizen till 6th level.

Later on after he started having new players start as citizens it became less important. By the time of the Eastern Front campaign when my character was a General and our legion was marching to Sunraya (there's a song in there) we stopped tracking XP and level altogether, at least for the military characters; what "level" I was was far less important than behaving like a General, obeying orders, and acting nobly.

Originally Posted by Neshm hiKumala

A very enlightening sentence indeed.

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Question time:

It is known that Tsolyanis can change religious affiliation. They might be raised as worshipers of Avanthe for instance, but later choose to switch to some other temple, as they mature, or discover the world beyond the walls of their clan-houses, or meet worshipers from some other exciting sect, marriage perhaps, etc.

This would then suggest that baptisms of adult Tsolyanis are not unheard of (after the candidate's clan has approved the switch, etc.).
Did Chirine ever participate or witness such ceremonies? Did the professor ever discussed such ceremonies with you or the rest of the players?

I assume here that switching from one deity to another is easier if the new deity belongs to the original deity's pantheon, Change or Stability.

When I changed over to the Temple of Karakan, there was very little folderol. The Imperial office said something like "This is fitting." At the time I was playing with Mirusiya's "New Men" and just didn't fit in. We started in 1974 with most PCs worshipping Dlamelish because of course a bunch of horny 19 year olds are going to worship the goddess of tits and wine.

But several years later it just didn't fit for my character any more. Kadarsha used to twit me about Korunme being a "nicely handsome good guy." But to me the difference was that my character was much more concerned about being a good soldier and following the precepts of "Noble Action" than he was interested in being PERCEIVED as a good soldier and PERCEIVED as following the precepts of "Noble Action."

Originally Posted by Hrugga

Uncle,

Just wondering if Harsan's "around the corner" spell is on any of the spell lists? I was looking, but I didn't find it. Thank you.

H:0)

It is, but I don't remember what it's called. Phil was writing "Man of Gold" and S&G at the same time, and I recall looking myself in the spall lists for this. I think it's in the Thumis section, and it may be a Temple-specific spell. I seem to recall that it was one of the mid-level 'gerneric' spells, so you may have to read all the levels of each spell as there are variants of each spell at the different levels. It's a huge list, and you really have to look at the fine print.

Originally Posted by Gronan of Simmerya

At first it was quite important when Phil used the "barbarian on a boat" entrance; you didn't dare leave the Foreigner's Quarters alone before 3rd level, and you couldn't be a citizen till 6th level.

Later on after he started having new players start as citizens it became less important. By the time of the Eastern Front campaign when my character was a General and our legion was marching to Sunraya (there's a song in there) we stopped tracking XP and level altogether, at least for the military characters; what "level" I was was far less important than behaving like a General, obeying orders, and acting nobly.

What he said; remember that he started with Phil in '74, and I started with Phil in '76. Phil had modified his play style a bit by the time I got there, and he continued to do so for quite a while afterwards.

Originally Posted by Gronan of Simmerya

When I changed over to the Temple of Karakan, there was very little folderol. The Imperial office said something like "This is fitting." At the time I was playing with Mirusiya's "New Men" and just didn't fit in. We started in 1974 with most PCs worshipping Dlamelish because of course a bunch of horny 19 year olds are going to worship the goddess of tits and wine.

But several years later it just didn't fit for my character any more. Kadarsha used to twit me about Korunme being a "nicely handsome good guy." But to me the difference was that my character was much more concerned about being a good soldier and following the precepts of "Noble Action" than he was interested in being PERCEIVED as a good soldier and PERCEIVED as following the precepts of "Noble Action."

Yes, very much so, you went from being 'one of the boys' (as it were) to being very much a part of the culture; I don't think they ever did, really...