Thread: Questioning chirine ba kal

Originally Posted by Big Andy

Okay you mentioned taxes. I know that, in theory, everything is subject to being taxed but how do they know what everything is? If you find 1000 kaitars in the lost tomb of Lord Autumn Bottom, can you get away with saying you found 500? Or nothing at all? I know you risk taking a long ride on a long pole but how would they find out? I know if you rolled a literal wagonload into town it would be hard to conceal but a small bag or some valuable jewelry could be carried in.
What about more personal items? If you snagged a snazzy sword, is it taxed on its value as property or only if you sell it? What about eyes and other magical/lost tech items? If an items is seized by someone, excuse me I mean if you donate an item to them and they give you a nice honorarium is that taxed?

I am curious as to how be bureaucratic the bureaucracy actually is and how informed the OAL is on such things. And I have one player who is the classic hoarder of gold who would find parting with 2 kaitars out every 100 as akin to being reduced to poverty.

The Tsolyani tax laws are pretty simple: Property, of any kind, is not taxable; income, of any kind, is. If you found a steel sword, it's value is not taxable until you sell it. If you found a pile of kaitars, they are taxable; 'collector coins', like Engsvanyali ones, are not - until you sell them, then it's the value you got for them. Jewelry, same thing.

Which is why we sometimes left hoards of coins alone - first off, they are heavy and hard to carry, and secondly they are taxable.

As for reporting, small amounts - like maybe a couple of hundred or less - will get politely ignored, especially if you don't flash the money around. Small gifts to the tax people do help with this, of course. The biggest issue is actually your clan and temple; they can get big rewards for turning in tax evaders - your clan can get dunned for your taxes, remember - so they have every reason to turn you in if you have a lot of unreported income lying around the clan house. And it's also a case of the goose that lays the golden eggs; Imperial taxes are often remitted or repaid as payments to the clan, etc.

It's mostly about keeping the paperwork straight; money need not change hands. There's always a 'deduction'...

Originally Posted by Big Andy

Another question, if everyone on a clan farm is wiped out, could you buy it? Or claim it if it has been abandoned for a while? Do clans ever just bail on an area or city, if it just isnt't profitable for them?

And given how dangerous Tekumel is, how many farmers and what not, out away from towns, disappear or are eaten? I know that gives lots to do for us adventurers but I do feel sorry for the poor saps that get gobbled up or turned into egg incubators or are melted by some old tech devices.

Knowing what I (and a lot of others) was like as a kid, I know that if I found some old hole or there was an area that was off limits according to my elders, I would plunge right in asap like a dumbass, where I would end up as dinner. I figure there are probably lots of "Cause of Death - Tekumel" on people's death certificates.

Yes, to all of the above - the clans will be happy to unload an cursed/unprofitable property, and collect the cash. No sense throwing good kaitars after bad. Pay for a title search; you buy the property's obligations as well as the title.

This is why most people are very incurious; it's safer to let the professional adventurers handle the problem...

Uncle,

Greetings. On your adventures did you ever encounter any pc or npc, who did not worship any deity? On the oppsite side of the spectrum, did you ever encounter any pc or npc that worshiped all the gods? How where these situations handled and how did it play out during the game? I know you have mentioned that sometimes people would leave offerings to other deities depending on the situation. Thanks.

H:0)

Originally Posted by Hrugga

Uncle,

Greetings. On your adventures did you ever encounter any pc or npc, who did not worship any deity? On the oppsite side of the spectrum, did you ever encounter any pc or npc that worshiped all the gods? How where these situations handled and how did it play out during the game? I know you have mentioned that sometimes people would leave offerings to other deities depending on the situation. Thanks.

H:0)

Well, we never met any 'atheists', as we'd understand the word. Plenty of cynics, like the majority of the Undying Wizards, who seem to be 'aligned' or 'allied' to one of the gods, but don't 'worship' them. Again, it's a huge difference in education - the UW are aware that 'the Gods' are simply more advanced beings, unlike most of the population. On the other hand, there were also no 'pantheists', either. One worshipped one of the gods, more then anything else from clan and family traditions, but nobody that we ever met had multiple deities that they worshipped. It just didn't come up for us - except when the UWs would show up, and then we'd nod politely and get away from them as fast as possible as they were always a pain in the ass.

Having said that, one does leave offerings and make donations at other temples then one's own; we'd routinely make offerings across the Change-Stability difference to Avanthe, for example, despite being Vimuhla or Ksarul worshippers. Religion was a spectrum, not a series of non-cooperative sects like most real-world religions seem to be.

Does this help, any?

Chirine,

Just wondering. During your travels on Tekumel did you ever encounter Hlyss outside of a maritime environment, say in the hinterlands of Tsolyanu, or in some remote corner of the Five Empires?
Also, did you ever make it Jannu, or Kilalammu? If so is there anything interesting about the culture or locals that you could share with us?

Shemek

Originally Posted by Shemek hiTankolel

Chirine,

Just wondering. During your travels on Tekumel did you ever encounter Hlyss outside of a maritime environment, say in the hinterlands of Tsolyanu, or in some remote corner of the Five Empires?
Also, did you ever make it Jannu, or Kilalammu? If so is there anything interesting about the culture or locals that you could share with us?

Shemek

Yes; Underworlds and the tubeway system - they were 'player-characters' looking for an adventure, same as us. And they were usually a very nasty surprise, as we were (If I may say so myself) pretty good at this adventuring lark. Of course, as they were also the best that their culture had to offer, they were a pretty nasty surprise for us, as they were usually pretty good at it as well. As might be expected, mayhem ensued.

Yes - The Hekellu-Sirsum micro-campaign was fought by us out this way. We fought our way out to Sirsum (Book V), and I'll have to go back and look at my notes and campaign logs; I have a sneaking suspicion that we have indeed been through there, on our way through our second adventure with Harchar (Book IV), but I'm going to have to look.

The locals are usually pretty decent folk, if you respect their customs and traditions. Lots of small villages up in the valleys. Lots of small clans who are usually feuding with each other. Very, very, very independently-minded, with no love of any kind of imposed central authority. About the only thing they agree on is fighting the Ssu when they need to, and keeping the humans in Mihallu - the old 'Engsvanyali province' - on their side of the lake. When Phil played this with us, the place felt like Sogdia, Bactria, and the Afghan tribes; all of which Phil knew from first hand, so it was very realistic. By the way, Nyssa's maid, Aliyah, is from Kilalammu; her name is a little in-joke, too, alluding to Phil's love of the "Dune" series. (And her handiness with knives, for which the local tribeswomen are famous. Of infamous, if you get on their bad side.) She's from the Clan of the Barren Peaks.

Basic information on the region is in the Sourcebook, of course, but I can also highly commend this site:

http://tekumel.skaran.net/tekumel/kilalammu.html

This person was in contact with Phil for quite a while, and did his maps and information from his conversations with Phil. The site is a great example of what can be done with Tekumel - "Make Tekumel your own!", as Phil said - and I use it myself as a reference.

I'm sorry to be so vague - I sound like a travelogue, don't I? - so is there something more specific you want to know?

Chirine.

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

Yes; Underworlds and the tubeway system - they were 'player-characters' looking for an adventure, same as us. And they were usually a very nasty surprise, as we were (If I may say so myself) pretty good at this adventuring lark. Of course, as they were also the best that their culture had to offer, they were a pretty nasty surprise for us, as they were usually pretty good at it as well. As might be expected, mayhem ensued.

Good to know. I seem to remember reading that the Hlyss could be found in all types of places, other than the ocean, but I couldn't remember if I was recalling it correctly. My players will not be too happy...

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

Yes - The Hekellu-Sirsum micro-campaign was fought by us out this way. We fought our way out to Sirsum (Book V), and I'll have to go back and look at my notes and campaign logs; I have a sneaking suspicion that we have indeed been through there, on our way through our second adventure with Harchar (Book IV), but I'm going to have to look.

Can't wait to learn more about this. We know so little about that part of Tekumel, other than what was in Flamesong, and any new information should be welcomed by players and GM's. Besides, Harchar's adventures are always good for a laugh or two.

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

The locals are usually pretty decent folk, if you respect their customs and traditions. Lots of small villages up in the valleys. Lots of small clans who are usually feuding with each other. Very, very, very independently-minded, with no love of any kind of imposed central authority. About the only thing they agree on is fighting the Ssu when they need to, and keeping the humans in Mihallu - the old 'Engsvanyali province' - on their side of the lake. When Phil played this with us, the place felt like Sogdia, Bactria, and the Afghan tribes; all of which Phil knew from first hand, so it was very realistic. By the way, Nyssa's maid, Aliyah, is from Kilalammu; her name is a little in-joke, too, alluding to Phil's love of the "Dune" series. (And her handiness with knives, for which the local tribeswomen are famous. Of infamous, if you get on their bad side.) She's from the Clan of the Barren Peaks.

That's great, this is exactly what I was after. Gives me a better feel for the area. So perhaps Phil had this mind when running the game:

"When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains."

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

Basic information on the region is in the Sourcebook, of course, but I can also highly commend this site:

http://tekumel.skaran.net/tekumel/kilalammu.html

This person was in contact with Phil for quite a while, and did his maps and information from his conversations with Phil. The site is a great example of what can be done with Tekumel - "Make Tekumel your own!", as Phil said - and I use it myself as a reference.

I know this site very well. Extremely well done maps which I have used quite a bit in my game, especially the areas bordering Pechano and Ssuyal.

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

I'm sorry to be so vague - I sound like a travelogue, don't I? - so is there something more specific you want to know?

Perfect, not at all vague for what I wanted to know. Travels with Chirine. This might be a good name for a blog site. Thanks again for the info.

Shemek

Chirine,

One more question. How did Phil handle character level advancement, or did he not use levels, in the D&D/EPT sense in his game? If he ignored the traditional concept of levels, which I seem to recall you saying he did, how then did he handle character skill development? Would Phil decide that Chirine has been in a heck of a lot of combat over the last few game sessions and, based upon a roll, that your weapon skills have improved to such a degree that you are now more effective in combat? Similarly, did Chirine acquire more/new spells as the campaign progressed, and if so how was this handled in the game? Were the players required to go and train as is the case in EPT or D&D?

Shemek

Originally Posted by Shemek hiTankolel

Chirine,

One more question. How did Phil handle character level advancement, or did he not use levels, in the D&D/EPT sense in his game? If he ignored the traditional concept of levels, which I seem to recall you saying he did, how then did he handle character skill development? Would Phil decide that Chirine has been in a heck of a lot of combat over the last few game sessions and, based upon a roll, that your weapon skills have improved to such a degree that you are now more effective in combat? Similarly, did Chirine acquire more/new spells as the campaign progressed, and if so how was this handled in the game? Were the players required to go and train as is the case in EPT or D&D?

Shemek

I think you're right; we did discuss this early on in this thread, but I'm not sure where. I can try and page back and look, if you like.

Phil didn't really worry about how our PCs advanced, once he felt that we were viable characters, able to survive in his world. This was about two years into our time as the original Thursday Night Group, as I recall; he had gotten much more into 'story-teller' mode then 'GM mode' by then, as he felt that he could trust us not to bust the place up and treat Tekumel with respect. His basic play style was to have all of us do the 'crunch' and 'book-keeping', as he was much more interested in the 'fluff' of his world-setting. 'The Rules' usually came out when we had to look at some question or point of order; we'd pretty much memorized EPT, by then. So, he'd hand out / confirm XP for the first couple of years, and then assumed that we'd do it - one would keep track of what one killed, and then 'award' oneself the relevant XP; once the totals were done, one would hand Phil the information and he'd usually confirm it - intellectual honesty was assumed to be the norm at that game table, and 'cheating' was just something that never happened - keep in mind that none of us we what would be called 'gamers', today; we were all F/SF fans, perhaps first and formost, and we just happened too be 'gaming' to explore the world. (See also Jon Peterson's "Playing At The World", and things like our costuming and such - we had a very different world-view and style, which quite a few of what have been termed the 'superfans' of Tekumel didn;t like or understand. We were very much outliers, waaaay off the 'mainstream' of gaming.)

So, Phil didn't really worry about The Rules; yes, we had stats sheets, and we were expected to have the numbers ready of Phil to use; he'd roll %D - we didn't say D100, in those days - and adjudicate the results according to the dice rolls. (This drove the visiting gamers simply mad, and made for some very unhappy visits as they got all cranky about this style of play.)

Once one had enough XP totted up on one's index card, one told Phil that one would like to 'level up' (I think that's how it's said, today) and then 'buy' skills or spells as one wished, 'spending' the accumulated points and crossing them off the card. One then noted down all of the new skills and abilities, and Phil would review the results and file the card back in the boxes. (One also kept a copy, of course.) And that was it, game mechanics wise. After a certain point, I don't think we even did that - our advancement was usually in the form of posts, positions, awards, fiefs, and titles; EPT only went up to '10th level', and anything after that was simply off the charts and Phil didn't worry about it. His play style was all about his word, telling storys, and having adventures - it was not about game mechanics.

In-game, we sometimes 'took leave', and 'went back to school' and took courses in skills and spells; the usual convention was that if a player wasn't going to be playing for a while, then they were off doing this and would have 'leveled up' during their absence. One could also hire tutors to do the same thing, and we'd do this in between adventures' we did not 'level up' during adventures / story arcs. So, yes, they'd 'go and train', but only when the player would not be at the table. If Gronan was off doing his MBA, then he'd come back to play with some new skills.

One of the things that I think I need to mention about all this was that we eight to ten people played with Phil every Thursday night, about four hours a night , 52 weeks a year, for over a dozen years. (No exceptions for holidays; Thanksgiving had a big dinner cooked by Mrs. Barker, and then we'd clean up and play for a while.) That's about 2,500 hours of game time, and Phil's adventures and plot lines would span literally years of real time. We had people drop in and out of the game sessions, and that's when the number-crunching would normally occur; we didn't worry about in in terms of game time, and 'going back to the temple academy' or 'going off on a course' happened a lot.

Does this help, any? 'Levelling up' was not a feature of Phil's game play' we advanced in world-setting terms, more then anything else, which is why it takes the Chief Herald so long to recite all my varied titles and offices...

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

Religion was a spectrum, not a series of non-cooperative sects like most real-world religions seem to be.

A very enlightening sentence indeed.

----

Question time:

It is known that Tsolyanis can change religious affiliation. They might be raised as worshipers of Avanthe for instance, but later choose to switch to some other temple, as they mature, or discover the world beyond the walls of their clan-houses, or meet worshipers from some other exciting sect, marriage perhaps, etc.

This would then suggest that baptisms of adult Tsolyanis are not unheard of (after the candidate's clan has approved the switch, etc.).
Did Chirine ever participate or witness such ceremonies? Did the professor ever discussed such ceremonies with you or the rest of the players?

I assume here that switching from one deity to another is easier if the new deity belongs to the original deity's pantheon, Change or Stability.