Thread: Questioning chirine ba kal

Originally Posted by Gronan of Simmerya

Because 30 years of gaming history have taught them to think of NPCs as vending machines; either you stick coins in and get adventuring gear out, or you stick swords in and get XP out.

OK, that was funny.
I wonder what else we could stick into them to continue the analogy...
Oh. Let's just stop there!

Originally Posted by Neshm hiKumala

RE: NPCs as vending machines.
Excellent point. It's an issue in most games and it really takes special players to see NPCs are real people (if that's how the gamemaster sees them too, of course). The question is: how can one invite PCs to see NPCs (when it is necessary) as more than XP machines and toy stores?
In the last game I ran, I told my players that the group of NPCs they were spying on (nonhuman creatures) had children and small infants with them ... which immediately prompted one of the women as my table to say that they, the PCs, could then perhaps talk to them (the NPCs). That made me happy, as she was correct! This approach doesn't always work though as the last time I had NPC babies in my game, the players just slaughtered them without hesitation, not realizing that they could have just talked to the parents and thus avoided a lot of horrific slaughter. Sigh.

Child-murdering is sure to go well when they retell their exploits, no doubt.
I mean, no doubt there would be no end to the number of people that would try and challenge them to test their mettle afterwards. And somehow, I also suspect if they injure one of those people, they'd have to pay shamtla at least, while if they got injured, it would be "accidents happen in training, guys".

More seriously: have the people (NPCs) react as people. Think what they see upon seeing the PCs.

PCs that kill casually are casual killers to them. Would they be shunned? In most settings, hell no!
But the people that would seek them and extend a hand should be the kind that makes them wonder whether they want that hand. If they ever mention it, have an NPC dismiss it. "Yeah, and you killed X, Y and Z since I was around. I give them a chance to surrender and get robbed before killing them".
But even worse: have people that like what they do and imitate them. Then let them hear about those people and get sent to dispatch them. When they meet, have the NPCs greet them and acting as their fan.
"You and I aren't that different" is so 90ies..."I learned from your example", though, might have a sting to it.

(I actually gave a martial arts student to a PC in a wuxia game. She learned, in the Confucian tradition, by imitating her teacher. She was also much more observant and covert, because of natural inclinations and life experiences.
She was also capable and her teacher was sending her to do some minor jobs for her.
When the player learned how exactly she's achieving those results, she went to ask her student (about 150 sessions into the campaign, by my estimates). The student tried to avoid it, but when asked directly, dutifully reported the details.
It lead to the memorable moment of the player exclaiming "God, I created a monster!")

Of course, don't overdo it. Meaning, don't have everyone they meet be like that. Some would be normal people willing to work with them for the greater good, or because business. Some will shun them, probably covertly. Some wouldn't know about their "exploits" (and might change their attitude later).

And even better: talk to the players. Tell them that NPCs are people.
If that fails, show...the tricks above should help.

Originally Posted by Gronan of Simmerya

This goes back to the boom of D&D in the early 80s. People ignored rules on morale, ignored rules on monster reaction, ignored alignment languages, ignored any rule that didn't directly relate to "kill everything that moves," and then bitched that the game was so bloody.

I've said before that turning over the game to 13 year olds pretty much guaranteed that you'd get Lord of the Flies; but as they got older they decided to blame the game instead of the shitty way they played.

Interesting observation, that. And it rings so true with the things I dislike about D&D as usually played (and their absence in many old-school games is what initially lured me to the OSR).

Hmm, I should consider that when I have more time.

Originally Posted by Greentongue

It is funny that players will get upset when they can't recognize the treasure when they find it.
Having it be inconvenient to move causes even more issues.

Flamesong is inspiring in that way.

chirine ba kal, how many times did you have to deal with "treasure" that wasn't what a D&D player would easily accept as treasure?
=

But try to think of anything that a Traveller player wouldn't think of as treasure...or even better, a Gamma World/other post-apocalypse game player! I mean, I've been in games where a spare fishing hook did count as treasure.

Originally Posted by Hrugga

Ahhh Uncle, since you mention it...could you tell us a bit about The Strife of the Two Brothers...��

Thanks,

H:0)

This is one of Phil's 'local folklore' things; it's covered pretty well in the Sourcebook, Section 1.610. (He also did a drawing about this, back in the early 1950s.) The two brothers, who may be mythical and maybe not, fell out over their father's patrimony and one of them got dead. Depending on where you happen to be, either the good son or the bad some got killed. It's a source of adventures for PCs, who get caught in the middle of the local factions.

Originally Posted by Shemek hiTankolel

So, why is it called the Isle of Eyes, and what's up with the Lost City: does anyone/thing live there, any goodies there. What happened to the party when you went to these places?

Shemek.

The Isle of Eyes is covered with the circle and dot emblem of the One Other on everything, and it's a big - maybe the - center of worship of the One Other on Tekumel. The Twenty do not hold sway there; the One Other does. The locals are kind of stand-offish, but not actively hostile unless you happen to mention that you worship one of the Twenty. Then, they get cranky and get out the sharp pointy objects.

The 'Lost City' is your basic Catherwood 'ruined city', chock full of Mysterious Ruins just begging to be explored by heroic and greedy PCs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Catherwood

Phil owned all of the guy's books and drawings, so this was Phil's answer to the genre of 'lost cities'; for all practical purposes, it's Tekumel meets Tikal, with our humble selves trying to deal with the local wildlife and exploring the place. The locals, who still live around the ruins left behind by their fallen civilization, are pretty friendly and helpful - as long as you don't act like a typical D&D player - and will direct you to the Local Points Of Interest in return for trade with you. They have a small gift shop, where you can buy stuff that they have found. Prices very reasonable, but no warranty or returns on supposedly magical items; great source of excellent fake Eyes - amaze and fool your friends! - as well as excellent deals on fabric items. (I still have several of these in my collection. Little statues, too.)

This was, I think, one of Phil's very favorite places on Tekumel. It's derived from his original career path of wanting to be a Meso-American scholar, and is a very loving and detailed version of a Classical Mayan city all done up with a bow on the package for PCs to explore. I sort of wish that he'd developed it more, and done it up as a separate adventure or even a as an RPG. Phil knew and loved his Maya, and we had a lot of fun looking around the place. Got some nice goodies, too.

Originally Posted by d(sqrt(-1))

I have another question - we've just finished the Bethorm scenario "High & Dry", so I'm writing a follow-up (the PCs found the hidden "treasure map"). I'm thinking of something along the lines of:

1/ go find the treasure, whatever it is.
2/ Explore an ancient building in the forest (tubeway station)
3/ have some encounters with the locals.

Now, my mind went to the fact that Ssu use the tubeways, so I was wondering, if there are some Chnehl living in the forest near the tubeway, would the Ssu interact with them, could they train them in some way to be a bit more disciplined in order to try and use the Chnehl as patsies to attack a nearby Sakbe tower? Could the Ssu build a new pyramid structure in the Chnehl village? If so, what would it be like, inside and out? Any good ideas for interesting treasures for the PCs to find?

Of course, being a forest I'm also assuming that there may be some Dzor nearby, and either Kayi or Teqeqmu...

thanks in advance (!) Mark

It's all possible, with the caveat that I doubt that the Ssu would advertise their presence with one of their very distinctive buildings. Now, having said that, keep in mind that Phil would treat all his NPCs, of any species, as PCs and think accordingly - what you describe has been done by some of the early PCs in Phil's campaign, and I think he would have used this gambit to get the party in trouble in no time flat.

Me, I'd do it in a flash. (And I have the Ssu building, too.)

Originally Posted by Greentongue

It is funny that players will get upset when they can't recognize the treasure when they find it.
Having it be inconvenient to move causes even more issues.

Flamesong is inspiring in that way.

chirine ba kal, how many times did you have to deal with "treasure" that wasn't what a D&D player would easily accept as treasure?
=

All the time. Eyes, books, objects, people, you name it. Tom Thompson was the only one who'd walk past really cool stuff and go for the gold and gems; we, the rest of the party, would get a lot of very - and I do mean very - nice stuff out of his trash piles. But then, Tom was a classic D&D player, and we were into the world-setting; so, we had very different goals and objectives.

Syndic of Dlash: "Absurd! You would destroy an entire city for one woman?"
Chirine ba Kal: "Probably not, but I certainly would for a friend." <smiles> "Choose."

Originally Posted by AsenRG

PCs that kill casually are casual killers to them. Would they be shunned? In most settings, hell no!
But the people that would seek them and extend a hand should be the kind that makes them wonder whether they want that hand. If they ever mention it, have an NPC dismiss it. "Yeah, and you killed X, Y and Z since I was around. I give them a chance to surrender and get robbed before killing them".
But even worse: have people that like what they do and imitate them. Then let them hear about those people and get sent to dispatch them. When they meet, have the NPCs greet them and acting as their fan.
"You and I aren't that different" is so 90ies..."I learned from your example", though, might have a sting to it.

Looking back on it, I've never been a casual killer. I've always been a considered and rational one; Tekumel has been full, over the years, of people who really did need killing for very practical reasons. Phil always stopped and stared when I killed somebody; it was pretty rare when I did so. On the whole, he felt, I did perform a useful and valuable service to Tekumel by exterminating those that needed extermination. (Nobody ever came back after I got to them; there was never enough left to revivify.)

From AsenRG:
They would.
Dungeon Crawl Classics is making a Lankhmar series. And I think they might be statted as NPCs in Savage Worlds Lankhmar.
Besides, both of them are the types that just create their own traction...
I'd like to think so, too! I've just gotten tired of the 'politically correst' denouncing all of my old favorites as 'something-ist'.

Regardless - you not knowing what the modern gamer wants is a funny claim to make.
The folks in the OSR keep telling me this.

I feel safe in having decided to be Wes(e)lian - Major Wesley seems to have even less Sacred Scrolls, so I can't be judged by adhering to scriptures...
Yeah. I was talking to him the other day, and he mentioned that my series of posts on my blog and in a forum are the most that has ever been written on how to do Braunsteins as games. I do wish he'd write more!

I can bet they would, Uncle... Are any of them interested in trying one of your games?
I don't know yet; we'll have to see...

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

It's all possible, with the caveat that I doubt that the Ssu would advertise their presence with one of their very distinctive buildings. Now, having said that, keep in mind that Phil would treat all his NPCs, of any species, as PCs and think accordingly - what you describe has been done by some of the early PCs in Phil's campaign, and I think he would have used this gambit to get the party in trouble in no time flat.

Me, I'd do it in a flash. (And I have the Ssu building, too.)

Great stuff. The location is going to be fairly deep in a forest rumoured to be nasty (Soru'a, along the Chaigava river near Katalal) of which Jeff Dee's Gazetteer says:

"The trees of this forest grow high above the S�kbe road, meeting overhead to form a somber tunnel of greenery. This place teems with wild animals, and the guards stationed at the two closest S�kbe road towers are kept very busy protecting travelers from predation."

Do you have any info about Ssu buildings? I guess they build them from local stuff, or would they ship something in via tubeway? The Hyluss use bodily secretions but the Ssu don't AFAIK.

I always run scenarios as situations rather than pre-determined events, so if the PCs do something odd/interesting/clever, then the NPCs will respond according to their desires and motivations, e.g. If they don't antagonise the Dzor, then they could use them as allies or at least as distractions.

(The High and Dry sessions went well BTW. They did find copper swords, and one PC took his to the big temple of Sarku to sell it and got a very good price, plus wine and biscuits. They have asked him to bring more along if he finds them, so I'll give him a haggling bonus with them from now on. He's only slightly worried that they were so keen to keep in touch, and he's fairly sure that one of the higher up expert evaluators wasn't breathing, but that can't be right can it?)