Thread: Questioning chirine ba kal

Chirine's Tactics 101 - Case Study Three: The Door

So, we'll have a look at tactics in the microcosm: Phil and the problem of The Door.

First, some basic information. Phil used a pretty much 'standard' ten-foot-wide corridor in most of his Underworlds, which allowed for the use in EPT of parties in ranks of three in line. Normally, we'd put the best fighter - often me - in the middle of the front rank, and the next-best one in the middle of the rear rank. The basic 'tactical formation we used was armored people on the outside, un-armored people on the inside for their protection. Usually, this meant that the magic-users were protected from sudden surprises. We'd use the solid walls of the passage or whatever to control our flanks, and make sure that we had some sort of protection to our rear when (never if!) we'd get jumped by Something. So, we'd be moving along with the front ranks looking ahead of us, the middle ranks looking to the sides, and the back rank keeping an eye out to the rear.

So, we come up to a door. First thing we do, is the party has people looking back the way we came and forward to the way we were going. Somebody in the middle looks the door over, and asked Phil if the hinges are on our side. Phil tells us; if the hinges are on our side, one person listens at the door while another lifts the pins if possible. We pull the door away quietly, and hope that we can get the drop on anybody who might be in the room. The middle people in the party are the ones who go in the doorway - the people on the 'front and back' detail will keep an eye out for anything attracted by the noise, and will be the last people through the door when and if the middle (now front rank) call them in.

If the hinge pins are on the other side, then we listen and then try the door; if it is locked, then we move up the escalation ladder to sterner measures and pop the door open. Same drill follows.

Yes, it takes some coordination between players, and good communication in the moment, but we managed to do it after one or two tries.

We stayed flexible and fluid, and it kept us alive for years with the best Phil could throw at us.

And speaking of Underworlds, would there be any interest in a 25mm / 28mm version of the Tomb Complex of Nereshanbo? It scales out to a 60" x 60" inch table, which I have. Got all the needed miniatures, too. Would this be something that people would like to see and maybe play in?

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

Sorry to be away for a bit; real life has been intruding...

From AsenRG:
"The royalties are killing us" - Germans in WWI.

There was a scandal when the troops found some dud shells in their laps. The Kaiser was not happy.

Was there also a scandal because there shouldn't be dud shells?
Also, these people would probably be impaled in Tekumel...

I'm still trying to wrap my head around these notions. I was taught that the referee / GM was strictly a neutral party. We made our own messes, thank you.

I'm no longer trying to. I just IgnoreListed the guy after I stopped laughing. Admittedly, it took me a while to stop...

Lots of similar historical examples. One of my favorites is from the Lace Wars when a particularly nasty British infantry Major asked his troops not to kill him until after the battle. Once they won (Fontenoy, I'm thinking) he raised his hat and called "The victory is ours, my lads!" whereupon a bullet hit him in the forehead. Despite his facing his regiment at the moment of impact, his troops all insisted that he'd been hit by enemy fire so his widow could collect his pension.

Man, that's the real British spirit! Kill a man if you have to, don't complain if you're the one who gets the lead, don't make it a vendetta. It's something that can be admired.

Yep. Nobody found the Eye, which was annoying. It was a one-off, Phil stipulated after the incident was all over.

I can see why...

I feel I've been lucky; never had anybody like that in an RPG session or campaign. Miniatures games, now...

Fun fact: the similarly lightly armoured other PC, who was scouting with him, did kill the same guy to avenge him. But he didn't do it by charging with him and getting himself killed. He used javelins from ambush, and then a spear up-close.

I'd agree. I never really understood why he felt that way; we managed to run a pretty big PBM game while keeping him in the loop on all the decisions, so I'm not at all sure what his issues might have been.

Well, the geniuses are allowed a few quirks...that is, a few quirks more than the rest of us.

I'm thinking of opening the negotiations with "We're the Sweeny, and we haven't had our dinner!" and go from there. We'll see if anyone gets the joke.

Sweeney Todd. Even I've heard of it.

Why yes, I believe I do. Chirine and Vrisa would have gotten along with Willie and Modesty just fine, I think...

Yeah, I suspect they would.
I sometimes joke that half the successful PCs would have gotten along with a certain James Moriarty, Professor. Of course, the other half would kill them...

Let me see what I can work up.

I shall be waiting.
BTW, are you familiar with Kobold's Book of Combat?

But funny. Really, really funny...

True, that.
So you should do it!

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

This is a 'box barrage', pure and simple.

Man, I hate box barrages. Don't ask me why, I just don't like them.

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

This was a simple 'rolling barrage'; nothing fancy, and I didn't even need to use my slide rule.

Footnote: Fred, to his eternal credit, never did anything like this again; he asked us to reply the game as a training exercise, and developed a very clever attack mode that made any opponent's job a whole lot harder.

It's amazing how often basic tactics get to people unfamiliar with them.
Fred showed the true spirit, though.

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

Tom was one of those gamers who, when they had a big powerful weapon to hand, just had to use it.

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

Tom had a habit of buying and reading stuff that was more in the genre of campaign histories; he was very well-versed in the big picture and grand strategies, but he tended to neglect the 'less popular' in style and the more tactical. He was of the school of gaming that later saw the rise of the 'gimmick' army or the 'points value' army, where one simply bought - either in the campaign or in real life - stuff that was really powerful if you were going by the stats or numbers. He tended to rely on the numbers and gimmicks instead of the basics of tactics and terrain, and it cost him I don't know how many battles as a result.

Looking back on it over the intervening years, Tom wasn't all that much fun to play against. His massive armies usually seemed to fall right apart at the seams when he ran up against somebody (like Gronan or I) who knew something of the period or setting being played. In my experience, battles with him as the opposing side would usually be tipped one way or the other on the first or second turn, when he would 'push the button' to activate whatever special unit or weapon he had.

Fred, bless him, was always a fearsome opponent no matter what the period or setting. He never, ever made the same mistake twice; he was a very fast and astute learner, very well read, and very very serious about doing the best job that he could. In my experience, you could beat Fred once in any game or setting, normally his first game in that set of rules or world-setting. After that first game, you were always sure of a very tough and close game with him on the other side of the table.

There's a name for people like that Tom in contemporary gaming. At least in my area they call them "Green-Red MtG players". (It refers to the Green and Red colours in Magic: the Gathering, which have the biggest, expensive to play monsters...which are easily shut down by cheap to play cards in the White and Blue arsenals. Even some Black decks can do the same, albeit at greater cost. The Red deck also has some gimmicks who decide the game in the early turns, again, unless you listened to old Sun Tzu when constructing your deck, and prioritized not getting kicked to the curb over doing likewise to your enemy).

There's also a name for players like Fred. It's "worthy opponents"!

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

So, we come up to a door. First thing we do, is the party has people looking back the way we came and forward to the way we were going. Somebody in the middle looks the door over, and asked Phil if the hinges are on our side. Phil tells us; if the hinges are on our side, one person listens at the door while another lifts the pins if possible. We pull the door away quietly, and hope that we can get the drop on anybody who might be in the room. The middle people in the party are the ones who go in the doorway - the people on the 'front and back' detail will keep an eye out for anything attracted by the noise, and will be the last people through the door when and if the middle (now front rank) call them in.

Good tactics, though this presumes either that your squishy magic users are banging open the door (not usually a great idea) or that you have a much larger party than I have usually seen in an underworld setting. Typically we had to rotate places to have some armored folks to open the door.

And speaking of Underworlds, would there be any interest in a 25mm / 28mm version of the Tomb Complex of Nereshanbo? It scales out to a 60" x 60" inch table, which I have. Got all the needed miniatures, too. Would this be something that people would like to see and maybe play in?

Sounds fun.

Chirine,

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

From Shemek hiTankolel:

So, some things come to mind, and in no particular order.
1. where was his counter-fire?
I dunno. Every now and then a Sherman would get hit, so I knew he was out there.
OK, so he did have anti-tank capability.

2. what was his armour orbat. How many and what mark of Panzer IV's, STUG's, Panthers, Tigers?
As I recall, a platoon or two of King Tigers, a company of Panthers, a company of infantry in half-tracks, a recon platoon of Pumas, and some Luftwaffe guys with an 88mm flak gun. We had the lovely model, and it seemed a shame not to use it.
Enough track on the board to cause you some grief. With the kill ratio of KT's and Panthers v. Shermans he should have been able to do some major damage to the US assault force. I'm not going to consider the 88, as you probably smoked it the first round when it fired at the jeep.

3. how many 88's did he have?
One towed, six mobile in the King Tigers.
As per #2 above.

4. his force was primarily what? Inf, Arm, PzGrnd, Fallsch ?
I'd guess Panzer Grenadiers, form the half-tracks.
Ok, no reason for not redeploying quickly after the initial barrage

5. did he stay fixed, or did he redeploy?
He stayed fixed in place, as I recall.
His second major mistake. The first being the use of an 88 to shoot a jeep.

6. was this a one off scenario, or was it linked to a campaign?
It was a one off, but with campaign-style victory conditions. I had to get through, and he had to stop me or kill most of my forces.
No reason why, based on what you have said about his forces, he could not have been able to achieve this.

7. if it was a campaign, why not do what Jerry always did: fall back and redeploy?
I would have done this anyway when things went rotten, but then I always play as if it's a campaign battle.
Which, I'll warrant, is why you will never be pounded so handily.

8. what distances are we talking about vis-a-vis FEBA - FLET?
No real idea; see Gronan's reply. The table was something like five by nine feet, as I recall; plenty of room.
Exactly. Tonnes of manoeuvre there should one desire it.

9. the wildcats were in defilade, but were the shermans as well?
Nope. The Shermans were all out in plain sight in open terrain. I did pop a lot of smoke, though, and just kept shooting.
Wow. There should have a lot of Tommy Cookers brewing up that day.

10. at what odds were you at?
Maybe three to one in numbers, but even odds qualitatively. It was set up as a very tough fight for the Americans.
Wow. This is exactly the type of scenario I typically don't like playing as the American side. A determined and moderately aware opponent will hand you your ass tout de suite. Having said that, when you win as the American it's a good win!

I would have loved to have seen this one play out. I have played similar scenarios in Panzer Leader. They are tough to do right for either side. Hoping someone will fall into your trap is a risky thing. You've got to be on your toes. In the words of Old Blood and Guts: �There is no such thing as luck, merely opportunity meeting preparedness." George S. Patton Jr.
After reading this account I got a sudden hankering for some WW2 wargaming. Well it's a long weekend coming up... I might have to dig out Panzer Leader and Panzer Blitz., and find an opponent.

It was a lot of fun to play, as going into it I knew it was going to be very, very tough. I had to think very fast and on my feet, and be decisive. And it all worked out, I thought...
Worked like a charm. Judging from your account you didn't even break a sweat.

I'll bet that scenario was a good lesson for your opponent. You should call this battle "How not play an ambush, and the importance of reacting quickly to a changing situation."
As old Boney Parts said:
"The battlefield is a scene of constant chaos. The winner will be the one who controls that chaos, both his own and the enemy's." Napoleon Bonaparte


Shemek

Originally Posted by Big Andy

And speaking of Underworlds, would there be any interest in a 25mm / 28mm version of the Tomb Complex of Nereshanbo? It scales out to a 60" x 60" inch table, which I have. Got all the needed miniatures, too. Would this be something that people would like to see and maybe play in?


Absolutely!

Me too.

Shemek.

I was nosing around on the Blue Room again, and I found this on the Undying Wizards written by Phil. Maybe Chirine can tell us a little more about some of the wizards mentioned, or about the College?


"There is no lengthy description of the Undying Wizards, the
College at the End of Time, and other features of the Further Planes. When
I first set out to publish "Empire of the Petal Throne," I realised that
many complexities had to be simplified -- perhaps totally dropped, perhaps
issued later as follow-up booklets, etc.

I thus put "Empire of the Petal Throne" out as "Introductory Tekumel." It
deals with the contemporary situation, particularly in Tsolyanu.
"Intermediate Tekumel" might include localised planetary developments, such
as the Undying Wizards, the College, and some of the "nearer" Planes
Beyond. "Advanced Tekumel" then could go on to treat the Further Planes,
the struggles between the Gods (and certain of the Pariah Deities), the
denizens of the Pylons, the strategems and grand planning of forces on
several sides, etc. etc. There could even be a "Post-Graduate Tekumel," but
this is best left undescribed.

Some of the Wizards of "Intermediate Tekumel" are mentioned in the various
sourcebooks: elderly, bald-pated Thomar, Subadim the Fisherman of Skeins,
Hagarr of Paranta, etc. Others are not well known outside of my personal
games: e.g. the devious Thuken; beautiful, but violent and impetuous
Sarvodaya Di'ela; Turshanmu the Klutz; Ardza the Inimical Beast of Hosts,
etc. Each of these has his or her (or its) peculiarities and personality;
each is the defender of a particular point of view, sometimes
straightforward (e.g. Thomar = Stability) and sometimes contradictory and
distorted (e.g. Sarvodaya = Change? the Goddess of the Pale Bone? Others of
the Pariah Deities? Her own selfish desires?). Each has a role and duties
on Tekumel. These "wizards" are not just free scholars, who can doze in
libraries and teach and enjoy their perogatives, as some players have
wished. They are busy people, with projects, schedules, and goals. They are
*not* there just to offer magical devices and information to the players'
characters. They may help on occasion, but at other times they refuse aid
because they can see problems further down the Road of Time. They travel up
and down time and skip from one Plane to another, as a monkey swings
through the trees of the forest.

The College is, of course, a much later form of Avanthar, built in the same
locale with much the same setting, but at the End of Time, far in the
future when the sun is always about to set, and the skies are a soft red
and dull gold. The place is called a "College," but there are no classes,
curricula, or degrees. It is a "college" in the older, mediaeval sense: a
haven for scholars. Its libraries are vast, containing the essentials of
all human history. The librarians have no idea where specific books are,
however, because, like mediaeval libraries, there is no catalogue system.

The College teems with people and creatures from many worlds, including
Tekumel itself. These students study, work under this or that tutor, and
are given projects of their own. Some of these projects are designed for
Tekumel, while others are meant to operate on the worlds of the Planes
Beyond. The system is quite complicated, involving many points of view and
conflicting objectives.

Most player characters (in my experience) are not suitable for enrollment
in the College because they are still too human, too greedy and
self-centred, and too limited in perspective to be productive in such an
environment. A yen for "magic items" and "secrets" does not make a
candidate a good student.

The Wizards and the College are widely known in my campaigns. My players
are now accomplished "Intermediate Tekumel" players. Some have moved on to
the lower stages of "Advanced Tekumel." Many have met some of the Wizards
and taken part in adventures on other Planes. Some have even allowed old
Turshanmu to cast spells affecting them -- ask Eyloa about fried eggs, or
others about Turshanmu's "Pink Goo." Ask Arumel about the whimsical
Sarvodaya Di'ela, or ask him what happened to his own daughter when he left
her alone at the College for too long. Ask Sanjesh about his lovely bride,
Ais. There are too many adventures and details here ever to record n full!

The Planes Beyond are tremendously confusing: an infinity of closely
similar Planes (e.g. on this one you sneeze, on that one you do not), with
interlinking nexus points that usually take a traveller *away* from his
goal (like putting a blind child into New York City without a map and
telling him to find his way home) and are fraught with danger. Thomar
describes the Planes as a great tree, with one central trunk (the main
time-line) and an infinity of limbs, branches, leaves, etc. Layers of the
Many Planes are like the rings in the trunk of a tree. On one "limb"
Mirusiya is Emperor; on another Hirkane is not dead; on a third, Ma'in
Kruthai rules and has turned the palace into a resort for Dlamelish
worshippers; on still another, the Hokun dominate a lonely planet of Ssu to
which humankind never came. If one wants to know more (but not all), one
must seek Waba, the author of the Periplus of the Planes. He's a pretty
good guide, though not always infallible.

I hope that this much will serve, at least temporarily. I don't usually go
into these aspects of Tekumel. There are enough complexities as it is; even
in the familiar Five Empires, even in Jakalla or Tumissa or Bey Su; no need
to wander far afield in order to find things to do, any more than one needs
to know the street plan of Tenochtitlan in order to analyse American
political campaigns. I hope I live long enough to get at least *some* of
this down in writing. My players know much about the "Intermediate" level,
however, and can act as guides. A few are experienced in certain nearer
regions of the Planes Beyond, such as Sanjesh, whose friend, Horodai, is a
demon -- but a friendly one.

Enjoy. Watch out for little old men who want to "borrow" chalk or a candle
in order to make a spell.

Phil"


Shemek

From AsenRG:
Was there also a scandal because there shouldn't be dud shells?
Also, these people would probably be impaled in Tekumel...
Yes, but that was the British scandal. Yes, if I caught them...

Man, that's the real British spirit! Kill a man if you have to, don't complain if you're the one who gets the lead, don't make it a vendetta. It's something that can be admired.
True! I went back and looked it up, it was the 14th Foot at Blenheim.

Fun fact: the similarly lightly armoured other PC, who was scouting with him, did kill the same guy to avenge him. But he didn't do it by charging with him and getting himself killed. He used javelins from ambush, and then a spear up-close.
Which is thinking before doing...

Well, the geniuses are allowed a few quirks...that is, a few quirks more than the rest of us.
I would say so.

Sweeney Todd. Even I've heard of it.
even the UMNPD has heard of them; I work with them at my current about to be old job...

Yeah, I suspect they would.
I sometimes joke that half the successful PCs would have gotten along with a certain James Moriarty, Professor. Of course, the other half would kill them...
This may have to be set in stone and put up as a monument, somewhere. Very true, I think. Like the poor people at a long-ago Gen Con who had trouble wrapping their heads around the notion that Chirine really is an Evil High Priest, and even has his own Evil Army to back him up.

I shall be waiting.
BTW, are you familiar with Kobold's Book of Combat?
No, I'm not, sorry.

True, that.
So you should do it!
I'll put it on The List.

Man, I hate box barrages. Don't ask me why, I just don't like them.
Agreed. They are no fun to be under, even under cover, and I am not find of them as a game tactic as they are pretty mechanistic - I find that kinda dull, an while it does win fights it could have been a better game with more moving about and such.

It's amazing how often basic tactics get to people unfamiliar with them.
Fred showed the true spirit, though.
Fred was a sportsman, and enjoyed the challenge of game play. Like all of those guys from that time, having a fun game was a lot more important then who won or who lost.

There's a name for people like that Tom in contemporary gaming. At least in my area they call them "Green-Red MtG players". (It refers to the Green and Red colours in Magic: the Gathering, which have the biggest, expensive to play monsters...which are easily shut down by cheap to play cards in the White and Blue arsenals. Even some Black decks can do the same, albeit at greater cost. The Red deck also has some gimmicks who decide the game in the early turns, again, unless you listened to old Sun Tzu when constructing your deck, and prioritized not getting kicked to the curb over doing likewise to your enemy).
Agreed; we use to call them 'power gamers', and now I think they might be 'min-maxers'.

There's also a name for players like Fred. It's "worthy opponents"!
Very, very much so; I'd play Fred any day, and I miss the guy.

Originally Posted by Bren

Good tactics, though this presumes either that your squishy magic users are banging open the door (not usually a great idea) or that you have a much larger party than I have usually seen in an underworld setting. Typically we had to rotate places to have some armored folks to open the door.

Sounds fun.

Very astute observations. We normally had eight to ten people in our group out at Phil's, with a mix of pure fighters, pure magic users, and 'priests' - the mixed use class. Normally, the more experienced players would take the front and back, and the less experienced would be in the middle. This gave them a lot more to do, which was fine, and they usually had the skills to do a lot of this stuff. Which is why I get boggled at the idea of 'niche protection'; we just naturally assumed that the person with the most applicable skills would be doing the needed stuff; 'leadership of the party', such s it was, would move around between people depending on the situation.

I still run larger groups, and enjoy them more. Given the very fast pace of my games, it gives the players more time to think, and the dynamics are a lot of fun. Get a good, cooperative group (like the amazing mob - eighteen people - I had at Gary Con, last year) and it becomes a really fun time.

My thought for doing 'Tomb Complex' is that I usually run the Jakalla Underworld, and it does get a bit old for me - I have memorized most of the map key by now, I fear. I'd like to have something quick, fast, and fun for people to play that is also visually spectacular, and I thought that this project might fit the bill...