Thread: Questioning chirine ba kal

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

I'd love to see this, myself; had it happen a couple of times out at Phil's, with amusing and enriching consequences.

I always tried really, really hard to make sure the OAL had no interest in me. Once Phil realized that I really didn't have any nefarious plans other than "be a good and loyal soldier" it wasn't much of an issue.

For me, that is. There's always SOME player character who thinks he can outsmart the Secret Police. "When we return to Be Sy you will be pulled apart by wild Feshenga, for the plaudits of the troops and the amusement of the children."



*2500 XP to identify THAT without checking

Originally Posted by AsenRG

1.Yeah, I can think of a guy who liked that playstyle, too...
Except I can outmatch him on that.
His PC is the reason I've said that PCs I played have sold other PCs in slavery. "Payback is a bitch", as I told him. I maintain that it was what he earned.
The people over at another forum never ask me for the context, though, and just say it's an awful thing to do. Which is why they get the polite variant of "fuck you, too".

And yes, I got the idea about Qutmu when I heard he's from that other group.


Liberal Applications of Boots to Asses: Improving your gaming since the first setting was developed!


2.Let me try and help you here...
Gronan mentioned the word "baksheesh".
This is a word that we use as a loanword in Bulgaria. It means 1) a tip to an waiter or the like, 2) an inducement to an official to go "above and beyond the call of duty", and give you priority (not to commit a crime - just to, say, be faster, or present it in more favourable light to People That Matter), and 3) a curseword meaning "taxi driver with dangerous ways to drive and highly mercantile attitude" (admittedly, that's the most common use).
That's not seen as corruption, mind. Demanding a backsheesh would be; giving it, as long as there's no reason to suspect it had deciding influence, is usually overlooked.

Don't know if that helps, but thought it might. Because the three things that many contemporary people seem to have trouble grasping in settings like this* is 1) how much nuance matters, 2) how much scarcity of resources influences even the top, and 3) how important is giving, and that this is often a bigger honour than receiving.
Nuance: you're a ruler without "democratic checks and balances". Contrary to whatever contemporary people think, that doesn't mean you can do whatever you wish! If you trample the desires of people close to your rank one too many times, they're going to unite against you - and your superior is going to listen. If you have no superior, they might send you to a superior power for judging, merely by withdrawing their support whenever you're dealing with a bigger problem...
And of course, you can't just build everything you want by merely ordering "make me a road". Who provides workers, specialists, and materials? You can't just round up people and send them to work on your project. They're living in scarcity, too - and they can't afford to lose a few months' wages, possibly not even a day's wages. That's a sure-fire way to get yourself a rebellion.

So yeah, nuance matters. Giving money as a tip? Fine, as long as it's not too little (you'll get lesser treatment next time, or you might lose standing among your peers if that's out of the question), and it's not too much.
Giving money to an official for faster processing? Fine. Giving money for presenting your case favourably? Starting to get dubious, but no repercussions yet. Giving money to throw a case against you away? If you get caught, it's a serious offence. If it becomes known but there's no proof, or there's nobody high enough to prosecute you - you paid off the governor, say - you lose standing, except among criminals, but people kinda fear you because you got away with the thing you'd committed. Remember, respect might be due to obligation, genuine respect, and/or fear, and these are different kinds of respect.
So yeah, nuance FTW.
Let me clarify something else. You give a too big baksheesh to an official or even a waitress? It might be refused (unless they need the money), as you're seen as trying to indebt the official, or the waitress - for goals criminal or carnal, might be presumed, regardless of your actual intentions...
Because, and here we come to receiving and giving, giving creates an obligation in the other people. If you renege on it? In the East, they talk about "face". The phrase my grandmother used - and she was a master of this game - was "you couldn't look people in the eyes".
And the reason for this is shame is a powerful motivator, and measures your standing.

Again, nuance matters.

All of the above isn't based on my superior setting knowledge. It's based on what I've been taught since my childhood - including in order to deal with people who live in the same country, but have had stronger influence by our neighbours south of the borders.
I gather that this is much less common knowledge in the USA, though.

Asen,

1. I wonder, did he start to cry when you gave him some of his own medicine? This style of play may be great for ambience, or setting integrity, or what ever, but it is not conducive to friendly and smooth gameplay. At the end of the day "Somebody gonna get a hurt real bad", to paraphrase a local comedian. I never understood the enjoyment that certain people derive from spoiling someone else's fun. This is why I put an end to this nonsense in my group very early on. If one PC decides that he needs to destroy another PC, for legitimate in game reasons well that's another thing. However, if he's doing to be a dick head that's another. You're reaction to his action is perfect.
"машала"

2. You beat me to this point. Excellent definition and illustrations of what baksheesh in action is like. If we had our old emoticons I would take my hat off to you. I, like you, grew up knowing what this concept entailed; I would like to say almost intuitively.
Although I must admit I have never heard it used as a curse word. Must be a local Sofia idiom. I have been trying to explain to my players for years what this concept is all about, and they still mess it up. This institution just does not exist, not only in the USA, but in Canada, and, probably, Western Europe. I think I might print out a copy of what you posted (if you don't mind) and include it as part of my "introduction to Tekumel" guided tour.
One case comes to mind of how baksheesh was f*****d up in a game session. One of my original players in the "Old Game", as they referred to it, needed to quickly get some documents signed. It became evident that he was not going to get them as quickly he wanted so he decided to grease the wheels and openly drop a pouch of gems in the scribe's lap, in front of everyone present in the Palace of the Realm. To further induce the recalcitrant "scribblers", as he called them, he proclaimed in a clear speaking voice: "This should speed up the process. Buy your self a nice house with what's left over. Now Hurry up!" The scribe was mortified and somewhat indignant. Given the fact that the PC was a relatively high ranking warrior within the Ito clan, "possessed" by an avatar of one of Mighty Lord Sarku's aspects, the situation was quickly smoothed over and he was politely told by the local clan elders that in the future they would arrange for any official documents that may be needed to be personally delivered to him. The player just didn't get how baksheesh works. He associates it solely with bribery and corruption, which of course is not the case.
I am at the stage now that if my players play locals I kind of gloss over it (assumed knowledge), but if they play foreigners I ham it up for all it's worth.

Another thing that my group has never gotten, is the notion of haggling. They just can't or wont do it. In my games the locals love it when they see the PC's coming into the market. It will most certainly be a good day for some lucky merchant! I play this up all the time, and I have fleeced the players for thousands of GP/Kaitars over the years that we have been gaming.

Shemek.

Originally Posted by Hrugga

Gottcha!!! It's been awhile. Now I know I need to reread again. I was kinda waiting for the whole manuscript, book form and all, special edition hardcover with slipcase and silk book mark... ;0) By Late October I should get back on the Tekumel track full time. Hopefully I will have some intelligent questions for you then. Sometimes it's hard to juggle real world and what keeps us sane and entertained. Thank you as always.

H:0)

Mighty Hrugga of the Epics, hurry back to Tekumel! The real world can be over-rated at times

Shemek

Originally Posted by Gronan of Simmerya

This is a really, really excellent summation. And Asen's right that the US just does not WORK like that. Certain professions like concierges and taxi drivers are usually tipped; restaurant wait staff have, by law, a lower minimum wage so they depend on tips; but other than that, it just Is Not Done. Hell, I don't think most people would even know what to do if offered a "gift." The fact is, though most people don't know it, the US Constitution spends a LOT of ink regulating commerce; that's why we have a different culture.

I've been told that in ancient China the term they used translated as "squeeze," and that it was a legitimate business expense that was tax deductable.

Same in Canada. I think that people up here, who were not from a culture that employed this practice, would probably try and return it, or give it to the police.
Squeeze, I like that term. Only in China would a form of institutionalized "bribery" be considered tax deductible.

Shemek.

Originally Posted by Shemek hiTankolel

Another thing that my group has never gotten, is the notion of haggling. They just can't or wont do it. In my games the locals love it when they see the PC's coming into the market. It will most certainly be a good day for some lucky merchant! I play this up all the time, and I have fleeced the players for thousands of GP/Kaitars over the years that we have been gaming.

Shemek.

I hate haggling, always have. It was one of the advantages of being a soldier of the Empire; somebody ELSE dealt with it, I merely signed the requisition orders. Same with clan membership.

Excluding little things like trinkets for my lady wife, of course. But by that time when you are a high clan member and career soldier of some fame haggling becomes a whole different style of thing, with the "guest" (customer) being served tea or fruit juice and tiny cakes, and much fulsome complimenting of the guest's taste and great enthusiasm over the quality of the "host's" "collection," etc., and such a crude thing as "commerce" never takes place.

Originally Posted by d(sqrt(-1))

Given the way I think Tekumel often works (which may be incorrect), I'd maybe go with some sort of gene-engineered/other-planar powered virus/bacteria that is what animates the Shedra (a la many zombie films), and is therefore also present on their equipment. The Necrofacture spell probably just provides the other-planar power to allow the virus to do its stuff.

Or no reason, and that's just how it is...

Or how about this:

If you want to make Tekumel REALLY REALLY exotic... as Chirine has mentioned before, Phil cut his SF and fantasy teeth reading pre-WW2 works. Tekumelyani bioengineering predates the discovery of DNA so it's all about mysterious "life vats" where "vital matrices" are experimented with. Likewise, it's pre-computer science fiction! So go read some George Herbert, and some ERB, perhaps reread Frankenstein, and then brush up on your pulp SF. So your Tekumel technology isn't based on nanobots, but it's based on "dimensional vortices" and "allotropic iron*" and "the eighth ray" and "nutrient mixes". And such like.


*500 XP

Originally Posted by Gronan of Simmerya

Or how about this:

If you want to make Tekumel REALLY REALLY exotic... as Chirine has mentioned before, Phil cut his SF and fantasy teeth reading pre-WW2 works. Tekumelyani bioengineering predates the discovery of DNA so it's all about mysterious "life vats" where "vital matrices" are experimented with. Likewise, it's pre-computer science fiction! So go read some George Herbert, and some ERB, perhaps reread Frankenstein, and then brush up on your pulp SF. So your Tekumel technology isn't based on nanobots, but it's based on "dimensional vortices" and "allotropic iron*" and "the eighth ray" and "nutrient mixes". And such like.


*500 XP

Have read all those though, so can use all suggestions, and then choose an explanation. As Prof Barker said I believe it up to us to make Tekumel our own, as we can't run it the same way as he did, especially as a lot of underlying rationales are unstated. Also I was suggesting a non-DNA based reason!

Originally Posted by AsenRG

Let me try and help you here...
Gronan mentioned the word "baksheesh".
This is a word that we use as a loanword in Bulgaria. It means 1) a tip to an waiter or the like, 2) an inducement to an official to go "above and beyond the call of duty", and give you priority (not to commit a crime - just to, say, be faster, or present it in more favourable light to People That Matter), and 3) a curseword meaning "taxi driver with dangerous ways to drive and highly mercantile attitude" (admittedly, that's the most common use).
That's not seen as corruption, mind. Demanding a backsheesh would be; giving it, as long as there's no reason to suspect it had deciding influence, is usually overlooked.

Don't know if that helps, but thought it might. Because the three things that many contemporary people seem to have trouble grasping in settings like this* is 1) how much nuance matters, 2) how much scarcity of resources influences even the top, and 3) how important is giving, and that this is often a bigger honour than receiving.
Nuance: you're a ruler without "democratic checks and balances". Contrary to whatever contemporary people think, that doesn't mean you can do whatever you wish! If you trample the desires of people close to your rank one too many times, they're going to unite against you - and your superior is going to listen. If you have no superior, they might send you to a superior power for judging, merely by withdrawing their support whenever you're dealing with a bigger problem...
And of course, you can't just build everything you want by merely ordering "make me a road". Who provides workers, specialists, and materials? You can't just round up people and send them to work on your project. They're living in scarcity, too - and they can't afford to lose a few months' wages, possibly not even a day's wages. That's a sure-fire way to get yourself a rebellion.

So yeah, nuance matters. Giving money as a tip? Fine, as long as it's not too little (you'll get lesser treatment next time, or you might lose standing among your peers if that's out of the question), and it's not too much.
Giving money to an official for faster processing? Fine. Giving money for presenting your case favourably? Starting to get dubious, but no repercussions yet. Giving money to throw a case against you away? If you get caught, it's a serious offence. If it becomes known but there's no proof, or there's nobody high enough to prosecute you - you paid off the governor, say - you lose standing, except among criminals, but people kinda fear you because you got away with the thing you'd committed. Remember, respect might be due to obligation, genuine respect, and/or fear, and these are different kinds of respect.
So yeah, nuance FTW.
Let me clarify something else. You give a too big baksheesh to an official or even a waitress? It might be refused (unless they need the money), as you're seen as trying to indebt the official, or the waitress - for goals criminal or carnal, might be presumed, regardless of your actual intentions...
Because, and here we come to receiving and giving, giving creates an obligation in the other people. If you renege on it? In the East, they talk about "face". The phrase my grandmother used - and she was a master of this game - was "you couldn't look people in the eyes".
And the reason for this is shame is a powerful motivator, and measures your standing.

Again, nuance matters.

All of the above isn't based on my superior setting knowledge. It's based on what I've been taught since my childhood - including in order to deal with people who live in the same country, but have had stronger influence by our neighbours south of the borders.
I gather that this is much less common knowledge in the USA, though.

*I mean "Exalted, Tekumel, and almost everything based on real-world history".

All great points in your post, and this bit should be engraved on stone tablets someplace. Very, very well done, sir!!!

Originally Posted by Hrugga

Thanks. Nuance is a good way to put it. I will say that this thread has been an education for me thus far. I see gaming with The Professor was really a valuable experience for both Lord Chirine and Glorious General. Thanks for the insight Lord Asen. I am at heart a country bumpkin...Baksheesh in the dictionary runs the whole gambit from alms to bribes!!!

H:0)

Oh, I'm sure any of us would have learned a lot by playing with Phil!

Glad you found it helpful.
And baksheesh does run the whole gambit from alms to bribes. The nuance of the situation and the context is what makes the difference...

Originally Posted by Gronan of Simmerya

This is a really, really excellent summation. And Asen's right that the US just does not WORK like that. Certain professions like concierges and taxi drivers are usually tipped; restaurant wait staff have, by law, a lower minimum wage so they depend on tips; but other than that, it just Is Not Done. Hell, I don't think most people would even know what to do if offered a "gift." The fact is, though most people don't know it, the US Constitution spends a LOT of ink regulating commerce; that's why we have a different culture.

I've been told that in ancient China the term they used translated as "squeeze," and that it was a legitimate business expense that was tax deductable.

Seems like that, indeed.

And I don't know what the term in Ancient China translated to, but I'm almost sure I've read in some explorer's work that it was, indeed, tax deductable. Don't quote me on that, since I've read said explorer's notes about 18 years ago...but it sure seemed the Chinese merchant he had as an intermediary was treating them as tax deductable.
Or I might be misremembering.

Originally Posted by Gronan of Simmerya

I always tried really, really hard to make sure the OAL had no interest in me. Once Phil realized that I really didn't have any nefarious plans other than "be a good and loyal soldier" it wasn't much of an issue.

For me, that is. There's always SOME player character who thinks he can outsmart the Secret Police. "When we return to Be Sy you will be pulled apart by wild Feshenga, for the plaudits of the troops and the amusement of the children."

*2500 XP to identify THAT without checking

I'm sure I read the line you used in history class. Not sure when, though.

Originally Posted by Shemek hiTankolel

Asen,

1. I wonder, did he start to cry when you gave him some of his own medicine? This style of play may be great for ambience, or setting integrity, or what ever, but it is not conducive to friendly and smooth gameplay. At the end of the day "Somebody gonna get a hurt real bad", to paraphrase a local comedian. I never understood the enjoyment that certain people derive from spoiling someone else's fun. This is why I put an end to this nonsense in my group very early on. If one PC decides that he needs to destroy another PC, for legitimate in game reasons well that's another thing. However, if he's doing to be a dick head that's another. You're reaction to his action is perfect.
"машала"

He didn't, and the GM shrugged and said "ah well, you can use the money to offset part of the debt he saddled your temple with - you make a new character". He took quite a bit to do that, though.
He didn't come to next session, though I'm not sure whether the GM even informed him on the time and location.

"Благодаря"

2. You beat me to this point. Excellent definition and illustrations of what baksheesh in action is like. If we had our old emoticons I would take my hat off to you. I, like you, grew up knowing what this concept entailed; I would like to say almost intuitively.

Thank you, Lord Shemek!

Although I must admit I have never heard it used as a curse word. Must be a local Sofia idiom.

I think it's just a recent Bulgarian idiom, appeared in the last 15 years or so.

I have been trying to explain to my players for years what this concept is all about, and they still mess it up. This institution just does not exist, not only in the USA, but in Canada, and, probably, Western Europe. I think I might print out a copy of what you posted (if you don't mind) and include it as part of my "introduction to Tekumel" guided tour.
One case comes to mind of how baksheesh was f*****d up in a game session. One of my original players in the "Old Game", as they referred to it, needed to quickly get some documents signed. It became evident that he was not going to get them as quickly he wanted so he decided to grease the wheels and openly drop a pouch of gems in the scribe's lap, in front of everyone present in the Palace of the Realm. To further induce the recalcitrant "scribblers", as he called them, he proclaimed in a clear speaking voice: "This should speed up the process. Buy your self a nice house with what's left over. Now Hurry up!" The scribe was mortified and somewhat indignant. Given the fact that the PC was a relatively high ranking warrior within the Ito clan, "possessed" by an avatar of one of Mighty Lord Sarku's aspects, the situation was quickly smoothed over and he was politely told by the local clan elders that in the future they would arrange for any official documents that may be needed to be personally delivered to him. The player just didn't get how baksheesh works. He associates it solely with bribery and corruption, which of course is not the case.
I am at the stage now that if my players play locals I kind of gloss over it (assumed knowledge), but if they play foreigners I ham it up for all it's worth.

That's a really funny story, gotta admit it.

Another thing that my group has never gotten, is the notion of haggling. They just can't or wont do it. In my games the locals love it when they see the PC's coming into the market. It will most certainly be a good day for some lucky merchant! I play this up all the time, and I have fleeced the players for thousands of GP/Kaitars over the years that we have been gaming.

Shemek.

"You mean you don't see the doubtless qualities of this excellent clay pot, my Lord? Why, the form is perfect for its function, and the craftsman made sure to etch a scene at the bottom that's sure to attract the favourable scene of Avanthe! No doubt 3 Kaitars would be but a modest price for it?"
I have enjoyed it greatly as well. Seems like I'm a better haggler than at least some people in my group!

Originally Posted by Shemek hiTankolel

Same in Canada. I think that people up here, who were not from a culture that employed this practice, would probably try and return it, or give it to the police.
Squeeze, I like that term. Only in China would a form of institutionalized "bribery" be considered tax deductible.

Shemek.

Why only in China? I remember some multinational companies were recently caught trying to pass institutionalized bribes as tax deductible expanses!

Originally Posted by Gronan of Simmerya

I hate haggling, always have. It was one of the advantages of being a soldier of the Empire; somebody ELSE dealt with it, I merely signed the requisition orders. Same with clan membership.

Excluding little things like trinkets for my lady wife, of course. But by that time when you are a high clan member and career soldier of some fame haggling becomes a whole different style of thing, with the "guest" (customer) being served tea or fruit juice and tiny cakes, and much fulsome complimenting of the guest's taste and great enthusiasm over the quality of the "host's" "collection," etc., and such a crude thing as "commerce" never takes place.

"Excellent taste, Glorious General! I must note that my Third Wife says she noticed your Lady First Wife last spring at the reception at he Governor's Second Wife. She made me craft those moon-like earrings specifically because she thought they'd complement nicely the set she was wearing..."

Something like that, I'd think?