Thread: Questioning chirine ba kal

Originally Posted by d(sqrt(-1))

Oh sure, a large part of the game is the cultural side of the way things are done. In fact I tend to see it as a cross between the investigation (and nasty gribblies) of Call of Cthulhu with some D&D dungeons and other adventures thrown in, which makes an interesting mix.

OTOH it's always nice to know what the tax inspectors might be packing!

Oh, sure. Daggers, bodkins, maybe a spring knife - but the infantry escort is just outside the door, and they can call for back-up from the garrison. If they have their suspicions, you might face an Excellent Ruby Eye and a trip downtown in the back of a cart with a tarp over your head. They have very little, if any, sense of humor.

Originally Posted by Gronan of Simmerya

The tax inspectors will not be packing anything, that's not their job.

If you give them trouble verbally, they will speak to your clan elders, who will sort you out in a hurry.

If you actually attack an Imperial servant, you have committed treason against the Petal Throne. If the local prefect has a sense of humor, he may simply post a bounty on your head and sit back and watch the amusement. Otherwise, they have tools at their disposal; I'm sure the OAL has operatives skilled in assassination.

This. The individual officer probably is not packing serious stuff, but they always have their escorts and the rest of the city garrison as back up. Assuming that you just don't wake up dead, some morning. The Seal Imperium plays for keeps, with no mucking around.

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

Oh! I'll try is, and see how they look.

Well, the most important part would be not to tell the players that you painted them "just because". The watch as they start shuffling books...

Thank you - would be easy to make a set, too...

I'd like to see a picture if you do.

Agreed. I'll see what happens in the future; I'm a little disenchanted, right now.

I know the feeling. It's happened before; eventually, we come over it.

And you should.

Thinking about it more and more.
I think I've ran "A Fistful of Jade Coins" in Exalted, but the PCs just dealt with the issues at hand with judicious application of social power...and in the end, probably gained more than any of the other parties.

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

Oh, I'd have to agree with this. I've had so much go right by people - who keep telling me how culturally savvy and hip they are, too.

Ah. me.

Always fun when that happens!

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

Subtle? What subtle? I did everything except do a miniature billboard saying "Welcome To Morocco!", hoist a Tricolor (they gave a fictional one, but still), and wore a fez. I did do all the NPCs voices, and pretty well at that, and they still didn't get it over several weeks of game sessions. I used all the film's dialog, too. Word for word.

You got me as to why they didn't catch it. I'm still baffled, decades later.

Excellent!

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

I've had a very pleasant afternoon; got the window air conditioners in, so I could say I was doing something useful, but the real fun of the day is pictured below. Got the ovals at the crafts store for a whole $4, everything else came out of stock. The arched brackets were salvaged from a project that never got off the ground, and the brass rod for the railings were left over from a project we did for Prince a lot time ago. Everything else is from the parts bins.

Control stands and weapons mounts are on, and the supports with the steel plates for the magnets for the flight stands are all on and coat of black primer on the top side. I still have to add the lower detail, flagstaffs, and build some accessories - these, things like radium cannon and such, will be on steel / magnets so I can trade them out for different games. The two large skiffs can carry up to 12, the four small ones up to six based figures. No railings for the bows, so the weapons can be traversed and the players can jump off more quickly.

Grappling hooks? Do I need grappling hooks?

Excellent model, Uncle! Even I can see that.
Grappling hooks are nice to have, but not mandatory.

Originally Posted by Gronan of Simmerya

SHIT! I'd forgotten about that.

For those of you not up on Tekumelyani pharmaceuticals this is roughly like injecting somebody with pure heroin "as a joke."

We left that group soon after, as I recall.

I mean, shortening one of the legs on your war merino is one thing; what those clowns did wasn't even close to funny, though.

Folks, now you know why Chirine and I responded with undisguised glee when Qutmu took the high ride.

Yeah, I can think of a guy who liked that playstyle, too...
Except I can outmatch him on that.
His PC is the reason I've said that PCs I played have sold other PCs in slavery. "Payback is a bitch", as I told him. I maintain that it was what he earned.
The people over at another forum never ask me for the context, though, and just say it's an awful thing to do. Which is why they get the polite variant of "fuck you, too".

And yes, I got the idea about Qutmu when I heard he's from that other group.

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

Yep. It was, as they say, the last straw. Jim Danielson and Rick Bjugen kind of read Phil the Riot Act, and we all moved away from the 'New Men' and let them stew in their own juices. Gaming was a lot more fun, the room was nicer, and we laughed a lot more.

They still think they're really funny, too.

Liberal Applications of Boots to Asses: Improving your gaming since the first setting was developed!

Originally Posted by Hrugga

Lord Chirine,

Just a few quick questions. I understand that the shiny kaitar greases tha palm and gets things done on Tekumel. Is corruption more of an induvidual thing, or are certain groups more likely to be corrupt(poor tomb police,etc)?

Is that seen as corruption? If not what kinds of acts would be corrupt, besides having an undead army and taking the high ride...?

Let me try and help you here...
Gronan mentioned the word "baksheesh".
This is a word that we use as a loanword in Bulgaria. It means 1) a tip to an waiter or the like, 2) an inducement to an official to go "above and beyond the call of duty", and give you priority (not to commit a crime - just to, say, be faster, or present it in more favourable light to People That Matter), and 3) a curseword meaning "taxi driver with dangerous ways to drive and highly mercantile attitude" (admittedly, that's the most common use).
That's not seen as corruption, mind. Demanding a backsheesh would be; giving it, as long as there's no reason to suspect it had deciding influence, is usually overlooked.

Don't know if that helps, but thought it might. Because the three things that many contemporary people seem to have trouble grasping in settings like this* is 1) how much nuance matters, 2) how much scarcity of resources influences even the top, and 3) how important is giving, and that this is often a bigger honour than receiving.
Nuance: you're a ruler without "democratic checks and balances". Contrary to whatever contemporary people think, that doesn't mean you can do whatever you wish! If you trample the desires of people close to your rank one too many times, they're going to unite against you - and your superior is going to listen. If you have no superior, they might send you to a superior power for judging, merely by withdrawing their support whenever you're dealing with a bigger problem...
And of course, you can't just build everything you want by merely ordering "make me a road". Who provides workers, specialists, and materials? You can't just round up people and send them to work on your project. They're living in scarcity, too - and they can't afford to lose a few months' wages, possibly not even a day's wages. That's a sure-fire way to get yourself a rebellion.

So yeah, nuance matters. Giving money as a tip? Fine, as long as it's not too little (you'll get lesser treatment next time, or you might lose standing among your peers if that's out of the question), and it's not too much.
Giving money to an official for faster processing? Fine. Giving money for presenting your case favourably? Starting to get dubious, but no repercussions yet. Giving money to throw a case against you away? If you get caught, it's a serious offence. If it becomes known but there's no proof, or there's nobody high enough to prosecute you - you paid off the governor, say - you lose standing, except among criminals, but people kinda fear you because you got away with the thing you'd committed. Remember, respect might be due to obligation, genuine respect, and/or fear, and these are different kinds of respect.
So yeah, nuance FTW.
Let me clarify something else. You give a too big baksheesh to an official or even a waitress? It might be refused (unless they need the money), as you're seen as trying to indebt the official, or the waitress - for goals criminal or carnal, might be presumed, regardless of your actual intentions...
Because, and here we come to receiving and giving, giving creates an obligation in the other people. If you renege on it? In the East, they talk about "face". The phrase my grandmother used - and she was a master of this game - was "you couldn't look people in the eyes".
And the reason for this is shame is a powerful motivator, and measures your standing.

Again, nuance matters.

All of the above isn't based on my superior setting knowledge. It's based on what I've been taught since my childhood - including in order to deal with people who live in the same country, but have had stronger influence by our neighbours south of the borders.
I gather that this is much less common knowledge in the USA, though.

*I mean "Exalted, Tekumel, and almost everything based on real-world history".

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

And this is why I like Jeff Dee's work. He's been in the game industry long enough that he can write a good adventure - and then fit the adventure into Tekumel and not the other way around. The thing plays well, moves along nicely, and gives the players a lot of local color without turning into a lecture on bilabial phoneme fricatives. Mark Pettigrew did much the same thing with "Tomb Complex of Nereshanbo", although that is not what I'd call or use as an introductory adventure.

Shows you what can happen when a professional gets involved.

Indeed!

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

Player characters never seem to change, do they?

They've been the same in the history of our world, too - why would they need to change?

Originally Posted by d(sqrt(-1))

Ok, so, the OAL. How tough would a typical member be? What sort of gear would they have? If they came to a bunch of PCs and said "Hand over (X) in the name of the Emperor", how would they back it up (apart from people being expelled/impaled etc)? If the party did hand over (X), might they get a reward or the like (depends on X, I guess).

If someone does get something of great power I would imagine that Avanthar's response is to offer that person a large "inducement" (cash, land, title, dancing girls) in return for handing it over. If they don't then there is a problem...a messy problem.

They're infinitely tough: if you kill one of them, the OAL will not rest until they have your head. First they're going to find you, of course, or determine whether it was you, but they're resourceful...
Still think you want to try them on?

Originally Posted by Gronan of Simmerya

You need to look at this in terms of "you are living in a society," not "you are adventurers in a D&D game where brute force rules." Or to phrase your question differently,

"How tough would a typical member of US Army intelligence be? What sort of gear would they have? If they came to a bunch of people and said "The US Government is requisitioning this," how would they back it up?"

For that matter, when the IRS says "Pay your income taxes," how do they back it up? A typical IRS auditor probably isn't more than 2nd or 3rd level, after all.

My point is to look at the problem differently to reflect the ways that Tekumel can be played differently from the usual pseudo-medieval D&Desque fantasy.

I seriously need a "+10 000" button for posts like this!

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

It's an artifact of thirty years of publishing. EPT has Shedra with steel swords because it gave a reason to attack them, a reason for players to get nice weapons, and gave the Shedra a bit of an advantage against PCs with chlen-hide weapons. Over time, Phil noted that certain temples have metals that are sacred to them, and which enhance the temple's sorcery. For Sarku it's copper, Ksarul and Dlamelish l silver, and Vimuhla the red gold of the Chakas.

You can play it any way you want to, of need to for the scenario.

About the nano-bots; this comes from the need on some folks' part to have everything explained in terms that they can relate to. If there are nano-bots, we don't know about them as PCs. Me, I don't worry about the mechanics of the thing; I play it as it lies.

Given the way I think Tekumel often works (which may be incorrect), I'd maybe go with some sort of gene-engineered/other-planar powered virus/bacteria that is what animates the Shedra (a la many zombie films), and is therefore also present on their equipment. The Necrofacture spell probably just provides the other-planar power to allow the virus to do its stuff.

Or no reason, and that's just how it is...

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

I'd start off with the Temple of Sarku; ask somebody in the clan - the players should ask each of theirs - who to talk to in the Temple. It's highly likely that one of their clans knows somebody who knows somebody. Assuming that the swords were picked up in the Underworld, and nobody from the Temple - a living nobody, of course - got hurt, then it's 'lost and found' and the players are being good citizens by restoring lost property to the most likely owner. The Temple will, unless the players botch the discussion, coo happily and offer these fine, upstanding young people who have such a fine sense of decency a nice finder's fee in order to recompense them for their trouble. The players will get cash, and store up some favors and goodwill with the Temple. The Temple might also want to know where this forgotten shrine or tomb might be, but that's a separate negotiation.

I'm thinking of a nice trip to the scary Sarku temple in Katalal to flog off the swords, where they have a civilised conversation (and the equivalent of tea and biscuits) with a priest-appraiser who is very polite and offers them a good price, gets a scribe to write out a receipt for the transaction (with Imperial taxes deducted, of course) and sends them on their way. Of course, if they find any more he would be very interested to have first option on buying them, and any further information would be useful too.

I think the PCs could be quite worried about it afterwards...

Originally Posted by AsenRG

Let me try and help you here...
Gronan mentioned the word "baksheesh".
This is a word that we use as a loanword in Bulgaria. It means 1) a tip to an waiter or the like, 2) an inducement to an official to go "above and beyond the call of duty", and give you priority (not to commit a crime - just to, say, be faster, or present it in more favourable light to People That Matter), and 3) a curseword meaning "taxi driver with dangerous ways to drive and highly mercantile attitude" (admittedly, that's the most common use).
That's not seen as corruption, mind. Demanding a backsheesh would be; giving it, as long as there's no reason to suspect it had deciding influence, is usually overlooked.

Don't know if that helps, but thought it might. Because the three things that many contemporary people seem to have trouble grasping in settings like this* is 1) how much nuance matters, 2) how much scarcity of resources influences even the top, and 3) how important is giving, and that this is often a bigger honour than receiving.
Nuance: you're a ruler without "democratic checks and balances". Contrary to whatever contemporary people think, that doesn't mean you can do whatever you wish! If you trample the desires of people close to your rank one too many times, they're going to unite against you - and your superior is going to listen. If you have no superior, they might send you to a superior power for judging, merely by withdrawing their support whenever you're dealing with a bigger problem...
And of course, you can't just build everything you want by merely ordering "make me a road". Who provides workers, specialists, and materials? You can't just round up people and send them to work on your project. They're living in scarcity, too - and they can't afford to lose a few months' wages, possibly not even a day's wages. That's a sure-fire way to get yourself a rebellion.

So yeah, nuance matters. Giving money as a tip? Fine, as long as it's not too little (you'll get lesser treatment next time, or you might lose standing among your peers if that's out of the question), and it's not too much.
Giving money to an official for faster processing? Fine. Giving money for presenting your case favourably? Starting to get dubious, but no repercussions yet. Giving money to throw a case against you away? If you get caught, it's a serious offence. If it becomes known but there's no proof, or there's nobody high enough to prosecute you - you paid off the governor, say - you lose standing, except among criminals, but people kinda fear you because you got away with the thing you'd committed. Remember, respect might be due to obligation, genuine respect, and/or fear, and these are different kinds of respect.
So yeah, nuance FTW.
Let me clarify something else. You give a too big baksheesh to an official or even a waitress? It might be refused (unless they need the money), as you're seen as trying to indebt the official, or the waitress - for goals criminal or carnal, might be presumed, regardless of your actual intentions...
Because, and here we come to receiving and giving, giving creates an obligation in the other people. If you renege on it? In the East, they talk about "face". The phrase my grandmother used - and she was a master of this game - was "you couldn't look people in the eyes".
And the reason for this is shame is a powerful motivator, and measures your standing.

Again, nuance matters.

All of the above isn't based on my superior setting knowledge. It's based on what I've been taught since my childhood - including in order to deal with people who live in the same country, but have had stronger influence by our neighbours south of the borders.
I gather that this is much less common knowledge in the USA, though.

This is a really, really excellent summation. And Asen's right that the US just does not WORK like that. Certain professions like concierges and taxi drivers are usually tipped; restaurant wait staff have, by law, a lower minimum wage so they depend on tips; but other than that, it just Is Not Done. Hell, I don't think most people would even know what to do if offered a "gift." The fact is, though most people don't know it, the US Constitution spends a LOT of ink regulating commerce; that's why we have a different culture.

I've been told that in ancient China the term they used translated as "squeeze," and that it was a legitimate business expense that was tax deductable.