Thread: Questioning chirine ba kal

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

I agree; why not let the fans have a look?

I don't know.

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

From AsenRG:
If I may observe it...doesn't that mean that we're back at the point where Tekumel works? That is, it is a fan operation now (I don't mean the Tekumel Foundation). We can just use the materials that are available, but learning or teaching the setting is...well, it mostly depends on contact with fans.

Yes, I think you're right. One of the Foundation's basic issues with itself is that it does not know what it wants to be; one wants to be a 'professional' and 'academic' organization, one wants to be simply a 'literary agent' (which actually makes sense), and one wants to have Tekumel out there being enjoyed. Nowhere in there is any plan to foster the fans and the fan base - there are "issues with creative control", as it was put to me, and "severe concerns about the fans causing a dilution of the brand identity". I kept citing the way that ERB, Inc. manages to maintain their control of the commercial side of the Barsoom IP quite well, and also encourages a very active fan community at the same time. I was told that that business model didn't fit in with the Foundation's mission and business plan; I asked to see those documents, and was told that I could see them when they were ready. That was some four years ago.

So, yes, I do think that an active fan community that is actively encouraged to participate in the world would be a very good thing; it's the model that I used in my time, 1978 to 1988, as 'the publisher', and we built up a very strong and active fan base that was literally two orders of magnitude larger then what we have today. And that was without e-mail and the Internet. Yes, I do understand that the times have changed - but, I would submit, this thread is the kind of thing that will keep Tekumel alive; it is exactly what we used to do with the letter columns in our 'zines, and now through this thread. I'm not keeping Tekumel alive; all of you are.

Sounds like a good plan to me. Supplement it with social media and forums...

And that pneumonia story sounds just awful.

It was, and just grim. I had no health insurance at the time, and could not afford medical care. So, I just had to tough it out, and live or die as it happened.

You lived at a very different place from me.

I wonder why. Were the stars just that wrong?
Anyway, better not to dwell on this. What was, was. On to the future, now...

See my comments above. The basic issue was Phil's perception that 'uncontrolled' fan activity was somehow going to ruin his world for him; as Gronan has pointed out earlier, Phil often had a hard time separating what was happening around his game table from the business reality / model of publishing his creation. As the fan base got more and more active, we handled more and more of the 'staff work', and while we always ran everything past Phil, he got tired of the paperwork needed to run the thing.

I heard once that someone involved with Glorantha said to a fan "I don't want to hear about your Glorantha", though it's an unconfirmed event. But despite not being sure that it has happened, I'd say that it is an attitude that might have helped Phil.
There are many parallel Tekumels, and many parallel Gloranthas, and many parallel Creations, and...you get the idea.

I mean, yes, I'm probably going to take a break from Tekumel at some point...but that's going to be a pause while running some fairly similar settings with slightly different basic assumptions.

Oh, yes, like me and my vacations to Barsoom!

Say "hi" to my group next time you're there. Or, if they've moved out of there, go to the homes of the Threns and the First Born, and witness the devastation they left in their wake. Or should I say, "where the Therns used to be".

Yes...and no.

Yes, D&D certainly works better that way. But D&D is its own beast (some would say it's an 800-pounds gorilla) even among RPGs. It just has people with different expectations...

No, I don't think the same logic should be exported to Tekumel, or to a host of other settings for that matter. Part of what makes Tekumel unique is that it's both made for adventuring, and well-researched. The fact that you can get a scene out of some earlier movies is at least in part due to the fact that the people writing those often had read books written by people like MAR Barker!
Try replicating the stuff one finds in new movies and make it seem plausible. I haven't managed to, and I was using a system and setting made in homage of those (Feng Shui 2). My players laughed, let me know they're not buying it, but played along for the sake of the game...after making sure that I'm not going to think they buy into those assumptions, other than for genre emulation.

Very, very interesting!!! My gut feeling is that you are right about this - and what can I do to help?

You, Uncle? Just keep doing what you're doing!

(That was a comment to Gronan; while I agree with his favourite thesis that we do all of it for fun, I think it important to emphasize that "fun" can be increased by doing the research. Many people seem to miss that part when they hear his message. And from what I hear, he himself (and all of you) were doing some research into the things that amused you - cue Gronan fighting with swords, and testing armours, and Gygax having had fun with polearms, and that's just the wargaming part of it!
Like many things, this part seem to have remained unexplained, or the fans might have missed the memo. Cue also Gronan's explanation of what "scale sheer walls" means, as opposed to some DMs interpretation of "only Thieves can climb in D&D").

It would probably be worth it for the 20 or so people that believe it; but int he same vein, there are much better uses of your time and energy.

Agreed! I have a lot on my plate, but it's all worthwhile stuff. At least, I think so...

I certainly happen to agree, for all that my opinion is worth.

Great story, Uncle! Glad you witnessed it, and had a good time watching the game!
After all, you're The Archivist, are you not?

Oh, very, very much so!!! I did what I love to do, and have been doing since 1975, and enjoyed myself hugely. Seeing Malia is always a treat - she was about eight, when she was running around the AGI office at 1278 Selby Avenue, and we all adored her. I think it says something about Dave Arneson that when he and Maila's mother divorced, Maila chose to stay with Dave.

It certainly says a lot about both Dave and Malia.

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

Another good analysis of the industry! I don;t know how many CCGs I've seen go by that start big and then just die away.

I think you're very right about what Tekumel does for some players and GMs; it's been that way for probably the last forty years, I think. Accepting that, like Gronan and I did, is the sticking point for a few people. No, it is never going to be 'big', nor will it ever be 'popular'. Let's enjoy it, on whatever level, and get back to the game table...

That's the spirit. Also, the Mark Twaine quote in Lord Shemek's sig is quite good...

Originally Posted by d(sqrt(-1))

Is there any realistic way that could happen though? I would guess between the Foundation and the amount of work it would take to get anywhere it might be very difficult(?)

Well, I guess we could run a KS to pay off the Foundation to let us release the text-only file Chirine has as a free downloads for the fans, maybe with free artwork. The cost of the KS would be scanning his document (at standard rates for scanning), making a PDF out of it (or two PDFs-one with pictures of the original documents, another with the text compiled).
Everything else that doesn't go to Kickstarter, would go to the Tekumel foundation, basically paying it off to autorize the release of the document to the public domain for free reading and creation of derivative works, that is, games.

And here's the kicker: do you fancy running a KS according to the above?

Throughout the various editions there is reference to selling things like eyes, magical amulets, various other devices of the ancients. Where is this done? In the marketplace? Are there shops run by certain clans? Or is it more of a "you have to know a guy" (whether at a temple or legion or clan or whatever) kind of a thing?

Did you ever find something that was worth a bazillion kaitars but there was no way to get it out of wherever it was that you guys spent an inordinate amount of time trying to anyway? Like a some huge thing in an underworld that wouldn't fit through a doorway, with you guys trying to figure out how much it would cost to excavate it out?

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

I agree; why not let the fans have a look?

This is one of the most frustrating things to me about Tekumel. So much stuff has been created that is now out of print but it is not a matter of it being a defunct company. I accept companies going out of business. I accept that things go out of print. And I accept that sometime rights get all tangled up. That stuff happens. But when it is just sitting there doing nothing it is frustrating, especially when it is/was actively listed for sale. They are things that have been printed, there are proofs available to e-publish, which costs next to nothing. I know some of the older stuff may not be in the best typeset or layout but if it was ok to sell through Tita , it should be ok as a pdf. If it is being converted as a new project and will be coming out soon, cool, I can wait, but the volume of stuff that no one can get to, arrggh! I have been trying to get the Best of Journal articles from Mark Pettigrew to get the Underworld creation stuff for a while. Carl is out of stock, no pdf is available for me to buy, and second hand market is $120 and up for a 20 page booklet. The Art of Tactical Sorcery that Chirine mentioned up thread, not available. And so many others.

Originally Posted by AsenRG

Well, I guess we could run a KS to pay off the Foundation to let us release the text-only file Chirine has as a free downloads for the fans, maybe with free artwork. The cost of the KS would be scanning his document (at standard rates for scanning), making a PDF out of it (or two PDFs-one with pictures of the original documents, another with the text compiled).
Everything else that doesn't go to Kickstarter, would go to the Tekumel foundation, basically paying it off to autorize the release of the document to the public domain for free reading and creation of derivative works, that is, games.

And here's the kicker: do you fancy running a KS according to the above?

Well, I don't have any experience of running a KS, so probably not! You'd really have to know what the Foundation wanted, how long the processing would take and the hourly rate for that, plus all the proof reading, corrections etc, which I'm guessing would add up to a fair bit, all of which would mitigate against a successful KS in the first place. However, I would be up for contributing something towards it.

Originally Posted by Big Andy

Throughout the various editions there is reference to selling things like eyes, magical amulets, various other devices of the ancients. Where is this done? In the marketplace? Are there shops run by certain clans? Or is it more of a "you have to know a guy" (whether at a temple or legion or clan or whatever) kind of a thing?

Did you ever find something that was worth a bazillion kaitars but there was no way to get it out of wherever it was that you guys spent an inordinate amount of time trying to anyway? Like a some huge thing in an underworld that wouldn't fit through a doorway, with you guys trying to figure out how much it would cost to excavate it out?


This is one of the most frustrating things to me about Tekumel. So much stuff has been created that is now out of print but it is not a matter of it being a defunct company. I accept companies going out of business. I accept that things go out of print. And I accept that sometime rights get all tangled up. That stuff happens. But when it is just sitting there doing nothing it is frustrating, especially when it is/was actively listed for sale. They are things that have been printed, there are proofs available to e-publish, which costs next to nothing. I know some of the older stuff may not be in the best typeset or layout but if it was ok to sell through Tita , it should be ok as a pdf. If it is being converted as a new project and will be coming out soon, cool, I can wait, but the volume of stuff that no one can get to, arrggh! I have been trying to get the Best of Journal articles from Mark Pettigrew to get the Underworld creation stuff for a while. Carl is out of stock, no pdf is available for me to buy, and second hand market is $120 and up for a 20 page booklet. The Art of Tactical Sorcery that Chirine mentioned up thread, not available. And so many others.

Yes.
And it's more or less a repeat of "the metaplot mistake".
(Namely, the authors of the metaplot assume that by withholding information of "stuff that is going to happen in the setting", they're going to make me more likely to buy their new books...
What happens is that I'm increasingly less likely. Because if something happened in a different way in my campaign, due to me as a Referee not knowing about relevant factors that might have prevented it? I'm not going to retrace my steps back and replay the last events. Instead, it means our actions are no longer covered by the metaplot, and anything about it in their books is useless for my campaign. Too bad guys, guess I need no more books from ya...)
Except in this case, it's not even metaplot info, it's setting info. But that's even worse: I actually build settings for fun, not even profit...
And if I haven't been able to find information on Demons of the Stability, what do you think is going to happen? A) I'm going to postpone my campaign until I can find the relevant sourcebook at an exhorbitant price, or B) I'm going to go to the sources MAR Barker has been using, and construct my own demons, possibly even generalising them to a random table that other people can use as well?
The answer is actually in this thread...
And in the end, if I assumed that a place is influenced by Filipino culture, while it was meant to be a stand-in for Indian seaside? I'm not going to re-write my setting, either. It's just going to be less like the Official Tekumel. And it means I'd be less likely to buy more Tekumel stuff even if it becomes available...
So yeah, it's the same mistake in my book.

Originally Posted by d(sqrt(-1))

Well, I don't have any experience of running a KS, so probably not! You'd really have to know what the Foundation wanted, how long the processing would take and the hourly rate for that, plus all the proof reading, corrections etc, which I'm guessing would add up to a fair bit, all of which would mitigate against a successful KS in the first place. However, I would be up for contributing something towards it.

Well, I have entertained the idea, but I'd have an even harder time running it, since I'm not even on the same continent as the Tekumel Foundation.
And that's more or less the answer.


But, here's something for your use in your games, people. I mean, everyone can google the swords typology of straight swords.
Here's something for Tekumeli blades.

kopis-blades.jpg

Have fun with it!

Originally Posted by Big Andy

But when it is just sitting there doing nothing it is frustrating, especially when it is/was actively listed for sale. They are things that have been printed, there are proofs available to e-publish, which costs next to nothing. I know some of the older stuff may not be in the best typeset or layout but if it was ok to sell through Tita , it should be ok as a pdf. If it is being converted as a new project and will be coming out soon, cool, I can wait, but the volume of stuff that no one can get to, arrggh! I have been trying to get the Best of Journal articles from Mark Pettigrew to get the Underworld creation stuff for a while. Carl is out of stock, no pdf is available for me to buy, and second hand market is $120 and up for a 20 page booklet. The Art of Tactical Sorcery that Chirine mentioned up thread, not available. And so many others.

I wonder if $120 prices for used books have gone to the heads of the the Foundation folks making them think they can turn Tekumel into the RPG version of DeBeers Diamonds.