Thread: Questioning chirine ba kal

Originally Posted by Greentongue

Do/did you "punish" your player's characters when the player didn't conform to your vision of the setting, or do/did you warp the world to accommodate the player's vision.

By "punish" I mean to have the world "push back" when their character didn't do what would be expected by the setting.

Considering that when EPT was first released there were few if any examples, how much "euro" is acceptable in a game played as if it was The 1st Time?
=

Well, what the old guard said, applies for me as well...

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

From AsenRG:
Good question!
Chirine, can we work out which days correspond to May 13-14?


I'll look it up, and crunch the numbers. I'll be bask as fast as I an; our Internet provider is having issues.

Thank you!

OK, the most straightforward option is to cut them off.
The other option is to ask the guy to speak with the GM, and ask the GM whether they're looking for a player with some experience - only 40 years or so...
Your call which one to use. The most straightforward option might well be better!

Understood. This is not a regular game group, though; this is a one shot, and not likely to repeat.

Oh, well, then simply cancel it and have fun elsewhere!

We have a proverb about negative comments in my country. It translates roughly as "dogs might be barking, yet the caravan is still going its way".

I like that - and I can guess what it stems from, too...

We've had an abundance of traders and dogs since the earliest recorded history...

Unless that people that get prestige is you... just cut them off.

Which is what I've been doing. A lot of thirty-year friendships ended this past spring, and I expect we'll see a lot fewer people in the coming decades. But, on the other hand, I also expect that the people we do see, will be a lot better people...

That's why I +1ed your post.

The guy who scheduled me for his events on the two working days simply didn't care. He's so wrapped up in the wonderfulness of being him that any 'external' concerns simply don't register. This is the guy who left his guests with me, as he had his own appointments to keep, which I thought was kind of rude to both myself and to his friends. In both cases, I would up entertaining both sets of his guests for another couple of hours, each time. And I'd warned him about all this the first time, and he went and did it again. The only reason why I've put up with this kind of thing over the years is from a desire to promote Tekumel, and encourage people to discover Phil's amazing creation.

Amazing.
Not in the good sense.

However, as a lot of these guests to my home have been part of one faction or another - people convinced that there's millions to be made in the game hobby - they've been at pains to inform me just why I am not suitable to be part of or represent 'their' Tekumel. Bad hair, unsuitable shelving, being a straight white male, all sorts of very important business concerns like that; I am not 'metrosexual' enough for them. However, if I would only give them my collections and work, however...

Of all the stupid reasons out there...
Not to mention, they're forgetting that you get as much as you give. If they want to only receive, they should try boxing and keep their guard down...

So, while I don't charge for entry, I do toss the ball back in any potential tour organizers' court by letting them organize their own package tours. And, since gamers usually can;t organize their way out of a wet paper bag, the problem solves itself. Unless I get a call or e-mail from this weekend's booking, I'm going to proceed with my original plans.

That's a good one. I approve strongly.

Originally Posted by Greentongue

Acting like it is a generic fantasy European setting, with the usual Kings and Knights, just without Elves and Dwarves.
=

That, I have lots of experience with, since I've been running Chinese campaigns...
And my answer is: the setting trumps you, even if we're playing Exalted - you can work to change how it works, but you can't ignore it and hope for success. Even Ivan the Stupid worked exactly according to his setting. If you strive to be dumber, do it elsewhere.
And meanwhile, if you act like you would in a generic fantasy setting, expect people to react like they would to any other potentially dangerous individual with inadequate behaviour. Because that's what you're playing.

Originally Posted by Gronan of Simmerya

As I've commented elsewhere, RPG groups are now "ONE BAND OF HEROES TRIED AND TRUE WELDED TOGETHER AT THE HIPS" rather than "A motley assortment of sellswords, treasure hunters, opportunists, minor nobility, and mad wizards who occasionally band together in an infinite variety of combinations to combine their strengths for a nut too tough to crack alone."

I call it the MMO influence, because not everyone plays MMOs.
In the last session, we didn't even try to remain together for long, and instead joined as many organisations as there were PCs. I was the oldest at the table, apart from the GM.
Or maybe it was because only two of us had any significant experience with RPGs, and I was probably the only one who had experience with the thing D&D has turned into.

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

Well, yes. Even at the height of our time a a game group out at Phil's, we all were 'rugged individualists' with our own goals and agendas. What made us functional as a 'party' was that we all recognized this, and made sure that everybody got a little something all the time - I can think of more then a few occasions where we'd band together to make sure that one person carried out their particular mission and cooperated to make sure that they could make their goals. If we had differing objectives, we'd make sure that we would all 'succeed' and be able to show our bosses in the temples, legions, clans, or government what stout lads and lasses we all were and deserving of promotions and favors. We'd make sure to bring home the goods, and keep everybody happy.

Except Phil, of course, whose devious plots and dire perils were thwarted on a pretty regular basis by our thinking first and then bopping people over the head if they needed a thumping. It made him think a lot harder, and it made a better Tekumel as a result.

And that's how I imagine games should go.

Originally Posted by Shemek hiTankolel

Funny thing is that every group I have ever DM'd and played in has been of the latter persuasion. I only encountered the first kind of group once. Must be a generational thing.

Shemek

Maybe. I think it's more of a local thing.
Or maybe it's about game experience. There is "the wrong kind" of game experience, and some are unwilling to try another way.

Originally Posted by Spinachcat

I'm gonna borrow Gronan's colorful term here. Please ignore the fuckmortons who put down your playstyle ESPECIALLY since lots and lots of RPGers are big fans of minis and props. Hell, the Savage Worlds RPG system is very popular because its specifically built to be friendly to gamers who love tables full of toys. The joke is that Savage Worlds Tekumel would probably get lots of attention and the fuckmortons be thrice damned.

I've played a ton of RPGs both "theater of the mind" and "table full of toys" and both are great fun in their own right. I would definitely love to learn more about Tekumel gameplay and the views on this thread tell me I'm not alone.

So I'm sure MANY gamers would be interested in your videos showing all your decades of props and Tekumel goodies.

Good advice.

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

I'd agree with this. I've had a few people, over the years, who had 'issues', and we couldn't work them out out of game, we'd part ways. Better all round.

Indeed.

Originally Posted by Gronan of Simmerya

"Table Full O' Toys" and "Theater of the Mind" both work great. If you've been paying attention to Chirine's commentary on logistics, there's a hint as to one reason I lean towards "Theater of the Mind."

It also depends on the situation. Miniatures et al are great for illustrating things like exactly what the hell an Ahoggya is, or for the pomp and panoply of legions deployed for combat. Otherworldly things I think work better with a "theater of the mind" approach; no miniature, painting, movie image, et al, has ever evoked to my mind the sheer terror of

"Something was coming up behind them. What it was could not be seen: it was like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form, of man-shape maybe, yet greater; and a power and terror seemed to be in it and go before it...Its streaming mane kindled and blazed behind it. In its right hand was a blade like a stabbing tongue of fire; in its left it held a whip of many thongs....His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadows about it reached out like two vast wings. It raised the whip, and the thongs whined and cracked."

Now THAT's a Balrog.

That.
That is exactly why I prefer the "theatre of the mind" approach. I couldn't gather a collection like Chirine's if I tried for decades, and if I could, I'd have nowhere to store it.
But I can use my own advice: when describing something that's supposed to impress, talk until you see they've formed an impression, then stop.

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

Yeah, this gets old, too. I've found that I get two sorts of people; gamers who want to know what it was like 'back then', and who then have brain stalls over the "everything not forbidden by the rules is permitted" / "everything not permitted by the rules is forbidden" thing. Free Kriegspiel seems to confuse them, as while they really know the game mechanics, they have trouble with a gamer where the rules are 'invisible'. The other kind, sorry to say, are simply greedy - and I have to be careful and worry about 'loss prevention'...

I don't know where my gaming will be going in the future. We'll have to see.

Good idea - we'll think about this...

Last Saturday, we played without knowing the rules. We just trusted the GM to account for whatever we do, whenever it should matter! I'm pretty sure the NPCs didn't have stats, for example, and the target numbers were being set according to whatever we were doing. No proof, though, since we didn't know the target numbers.

And what do you know? Everybody had fun, from the guy with 17 years of play experience, to the one who was playing his first session. Only objections were when there was miscommunication - and not always even then...I didn't even mention when I had misunderstood what the GM asked.

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

Oh, I do agree; if you can do it, then it's a great way to run a game. Like I think we've said a few times on this thread, it's all a spectrum of game play. Me, I can do this myself, and I enjoy doing it; I do like the little actors on the stage and the props - but it's something that may not be for everyone.

I think a lot of the negative comments I've gotten over the past years are more a reaction to the way D&D 4th edition used miniatures, and how much of a 'backlash' there was to it. When I explain how I still do 'free kriegspiel' in RPG game sessions, and don't use a grid of squares, or hexes, I seem to loose people who are not at all familiar with the concept. A form of culture shock, if you will.

It does make it feel a little lonely hereabouts, though.

That might be true.
But if you want to not lose those people, just show them. Our newest player also admitted he had begun the session with doubt, after the session ended. In the same sentence, he also declared himself hooked on RPGs now.

Where is this implication? What is its provenience, and its niche.

For I wish to hunt it down and kill it.

Originally Posted by Greentongue

The perceived need to do a study of the background before play never seemed required, to me anyway.
In fact, to me, it turned away a lot of people that otherwise might have been interested in "something different".
Now, the implication is that, to play you need to take advanced courses in Tekumel and if you don't you can't avoid Playing It Wrong.
=

For me this is the crux of the problem when it comes to creating a wider appeal for Tekumel. The thought that someone is playing it wrong is beyond absurd to me. Play it however the F**K you want! Who cares if there�s a glottal stop, or post labial inflection in the word? I guarantee you that I have been pronouncing pretty well everything wrong over the last 20 years. If I wanted to could I figure out how it should be pronounced? Sure, why not? Am I going to? F**K No! Does it really matter in the grand scheme of things whether I play the OAL exactly the same way Phil did?
This type of attitude reminds of the type of mindset amongst a group of people I avoid like plague in my other hobby: The Dreaded Rivet Counters. These are the guys who will sit and bash a new model kit because it�s a scale 1mm short, or because the glacis plate on the model has a slope that is 1 degree off the real one. The thing is though, they are experts on every kit�s shortcomings, but do not actually ever build any models. What is the point of this? While they wag their fingers and bitch about the errors in the newest Tamiya kit, I go to my workbench and start gluing some plastic together. I�ve got a display case of finished models to show. They have only a stack of unbuilt kits to show. In the end whose �better off?� It�s the same with playing T�kumel. Just roll some dice and don�t worry if it�s Ahoggya or Ahoggy�. Damn, this attitude really cheeses me off sometimes!
Here endeth the nerd rage. And there was great rejoicing!
Unfortunately, as Gronan mentioned in a previous post (#120): �Sadly, Phil fell into villainous company who thought RPGs were "ART!" and that "ART!" meant grim and dark and nihilistic, and who knew how to manipulate Phil. Tekumel has been the worse for it in my opinion.� These villainous people still seem to hold all of the �power�, so to speak, and they are too arrogant or stupid, to see that their way will only lead to the extinction of Tekumel. It�s sad really.

Shemek.

Finally have a few minutes and don't have to type on a phone...

First, the "BAND OF HEROES." D&D 2nd Edition really gave this a big push, explicitly so. This is the edition that eliminated demons and assassins, after all. PCs were supposed to be Nicely Handsome Good Persons doing Nicely Handsome Good Person things. D&D is and has always been The Big Dog, so it's no surprise this took off. Combine this with the fantasy book explosion of the 80s being almost exclusively of the "Good Guys Save The World" style, and it's no wonder that many people default to a band of heroes joined at the hip.

Miniatures. Well, for well over a hundred years wargames have been on a continuum of free to rigid. CHAINMAIL is fairly close to the "free" end, whereas WRG is more "rigid." Board games, from Parcheesi to Advanced Squad Leader, tend to be more "rigid."

My experience seems to show that rigid games are easier for the players to pick up cold with no knowledge of war, or gaming, or anything else, in terms of "sit down, read, and go", whereas free games work better if there is a fair bit of knowledge by the referee at least. The first RPG I saw that required miniatures was "The Fantasy Trip," which grew out of a couple of hex-and-chit skirmish wargames. TFT combat is quite rigid. I remember the first time I played D&D with some people who had cut their teeth on TFT; I'd been using miniatures in a "show the approximate situation" way, and they wanted a much more fixed representation of what was going on.

Add to this that around 79 or 80 TSR switched its marketing to teenaged boys who would most likely not have been familiar with miniatures wargames, and you get a more rigid version of the rules. Then with 3rd Edition and the addition of miniatures they created a very rigid, rules intensive way of using miniatures.

Chirine and I both cut our teeth more on the free end of the spectrum, and he runs his extravaganzas that way. I think that's one reason he often has more success with neos or non gamers; they don't have things to unlearn. Rigid games seem too confining and complicated to me, and people used to more rigid games find free games unformed and vague. It influences a lot of stuff; for instance, if we're in a chamber and Chirine says "You hear a faint chiming sound and see a bluish white glare approaching," I will not say, "What is in the chamber;" rather, I will say "Is there something in here that I can take cover behind?" See the difference... I pose the question in a way that makes my intentions into part of the question.

Actually, I'd love to game more with miniatures, but the first problem as above is that I want to use them to set the stage and spark the imagination, not build a to-the-picoangstrom scale model of the combat.

And secondly, as Chirine has so eloquently described, the logistics of gaming anywhere other than lair sweet lair can be a major nightmare. To get to GaryCon last, I first had to take an 8 hour bus ride to GET to Minneapolis, and THEN get my sorry carcass down to Lake Geneva. I don't have Passepartout to load my packages, parcels, and portmanteaux, just me; so I limited myself to one medium large suitcase to carry a week's worth of clothes PLUS everything I needed for gaming. If Paul Stormberg wasn't supplying so much, I wouldn't be able to play miniatures or run CHAINMAIL.

I mean, I'd love to do a "Guns of Naboo" style Braunstein; the paper model SF stuff out there is lovely and fun to assemble, and I know little cheats like using 36" lengths of music wire to make tall spindly structures that are sturdy enough to use. I'd love to have Jedi fighting on an inch-wide railless walkway four feet above the table.

But I have no way to CARRY all that jazz.

Originally Posted by Shemek hiTankolel

This type of attitude reminds of the type of mindset amongst a group of people I avoid like plague in my other hobby: The Dreaded Rivet Counters. These are the guys who will sit and bash a new model kit because it’s a scale 1mm short, or because the glacis plate on the model has a slope that is 1 degree off the real one. The thing is though, they are experts on every kit’s shortcomings, but do not actually ever build any models. What is the point of this? While they wag their fingers and bitch about the errors in the newest Tamiya kit, I go to my workbench and start gluing some plastic together. I’ve got a display case of finished models to show. They have only a stack of unbuilt kits to show.
Shemek.

They occur in model railroading too. There are ways to describe how a kit can be improved without being an utter dickweevil about it, but these people seem unable to comprehend that.

Originally Posted by Gronan of Simmerya

They occur in model railroading too. There are ways to describe how a kit can be improved without being an utter dickweevil about it, but these people seem unable to comprehend that.

I just don't understand it. I really think that they get off on trying to ruin things for people, or as you put it they're just "utter dickweevils".

Shemek.

Chirine,

I found this on line, and thought I would share it here. Not sure if you've seen it before.

-and the
STRONG Shall INHERIT
by PHILLIP BARKER

Illustrated by PHILLIP BARKER

Fanscient12Pg28-29a1.jpg

PHARUN THE DARK had always had a passion for the beautiful things of life. And when the great lords of Malchairan rode forth in quest of glory, Pharun remained in his chambers engrossed in some scholarly pursuit. With his thin, pale hands he was wont to turn the pages of his beloved tomes and peer nearsightedly into all manner of bookish wisdom. Unlike his brothers was he, and whereas the other four sons of Chaga wore their mail to table and fought amongst themselves and made false promises to the kitchen maidens and spent their time at less savory pursuits, Pharun simply smiled and padded about in a comfortable robe and slippers, with book in hand.

Yet there was one thing else which Pharun loved aside from his books. And that was a woman. Oh, no, not one of the feline, painted, half-naked flirts of Malchairan; a simple, shy maiden from Phrantos who wore her robes ample and unadorned. A hostage was she, a daughter of the doddering king of her island home. Not half the fierce warriors of Chaga's stronghold knew she existed, and the other women of the place were wont to snap their pretty fingers and jeer at her provincial ways.

So she was lonely, a frail white little mist of a girl, alone in a nest of enemies. Which is probably why Pharun met her. He had heard her singing one night and had stopped to listen. In this way they had become friends, and Pharun went often to her chambers bearing his books and his writings. To her also he brought his problems, his frustrations and his dreams, and she soothed him, placing her slender fingers upon his brow and singing to him in the sibilant tongue of her own Phrantos.

"Indeed," he used to whisper, "It was your singing which first led me to you, and still do I love it best of all your charms."

Then she would smile and shyly close off his lips with her own. And in this way a bond was made between the two lonely ones, making the cold walls take on greater warmth and carpeting the marble floor with rosy clouds.

Chaga the bloody-handed, upon the throne of gold, looked with disfavor upon this strange and unintelligible being that was given him as a son. Chaga carressed his jeweled sword hilt and pondered mightily upon it. In vain did he prevail upon Pharun to put aside these senseless books and take up the sword and go forth to slay monsters and such indiscriminate enemies as could be found. Also in vain did Chaga offer Pharun wines and gold and the charms of pretty wenches. And when the king grew angry and expostulated at the top of his lusty lungs, as was his habit, Pharun simply paid no attention, his mind fixed on distant wisdom.

At first his brothers were in favor of letting him be. They jeered and teased, as will most intolerant youths, but that got them nothing but a gentle smile. They invited him to join them and got the same gentle smile and a shake of the head.

"Nay now, father," said Goran the eldest, "For long have we permitted this foolishness, and finally something must be done. There lies but one thing to do and that is to snatch away his toys. Only then will he realize that he is not yet a woolgathering graybeard. 'Twill serve to bring him to his senses."

"But that would be a most unfatherly thing to do. There must be other ways."

Goran shifted his brawny shoulders beneath his armor. "What matters it? Know you that the house of Chaga is laughed at by other great princes? Simply because of that jackass son of yours. They call us now 'the gentle lambs' and 'the Bookish Kings' and even more unpleasant things. He is the disgrace of our family."

"'Tis not as bad as you say, but the underlying truth is there. Pharun is a disgrace to my name and to the names of our glorious and warlike ancestors. How he came about here is beyond my understanding. A little mouse in a house of lions!"

"Then as I say, sire. A little swift work and it's done." Goran chuckled throatily. "Without his precious toys his mind will turn to more manly arts. 'Twill do him infinite good."

Chaga looked at his son from under the beetling eaves of his eyes and smiled. After all, it was for the boy's own good.

Goran waited patiently, knowing full well that his time would come. It was all he could manage not to mention the plan to Pharun just to watch the look on his face. It would be good.

Indeed, the proper moment came. the bronze-bound portals rumbled open, and Pharun was off to study the beauties of a summer afternoon. His chamber lay empty and unlocked. Swiftly Goran was inside.

His strong brown hands made short work of sweeping the parchments into the smouldering fireplace. Goran watched the hungry flames lash at the dusty sheets for a moment and then turned to the cabinets lining the wall. The ancient tomes, the lengthy writings, the astrolabes and other instruments of grammarie, the little cases of specimens and the delicate bottles of drugs -- all he hurled into the fireplace. He stamped into the sleeping alcove and tore the hangings from the walls and trampled them beneath booted feet, wild with sheer destructive lust. He did not hear the door open behind him.

It was the captive princess. Her eyes widened in horror, and a single sob of breath left her lips.

Goran whirled. "What in blazes do you want? Who --?"

"What have you done? Pharun will be --"

With one swift stride Goran was at her side, his heavy hand over her lips. He kicked the door shut with one powerful foot and dragged the girl back into the room.

"Never mind what Pharun will do!" Goran jeered down into her face. "He'll probably just moan a bit and then forget this foolishness."

For a silent moment she looked up at him, and then divining the look in his eyes, she struggled, panting wildly in his calm embrace, flailing wildly with her small fists and kicking the metal greaves with her soft slippers. Goran grinned and eyed her appreciatively. Perhaps Pharun had a better eye for wenches than he had thought.

Why struggle so? See, I hold you easily enough." Deliberately he tightened his grip so that she was pressed hard against his silvery breastplate. Goran bent and kissed her, fiercely, bruising her lips with his. "Isn't that better than a weakling?" He kissed her again.

Goran moved, still holding her, to Pharun's ornate bed. He threw her on it brutally and began to divest himself of his armor. "Lie still now and be a good girl and don't cry out." he jeered, "You're going to see what a real lover is like."

All this time she had lain motionless. Now she moved like a frightened deer and snatched a bodkin from her waist. Goran eyed her warily, but kept on removing his armor. Too late he saw what she intended. With a frustrated cry Goran leaped for her, but he was too late by seconds. She had plunged the dagger home into her own breast.

Goran stood a moment, his mind dwelling with horrid certainty on what his father would do to him for thus causing the death of a valuable hostage. He drew one sobbing breath and turned to flee.

Pharun stood in the doorway.

He did not seem to see Goran where he stood in the center of the rubbish-littered floor. His eyes flicked to the bright red splotch upon the breast of his beloved and a grimace of pain passed across his set features. Then silently he turned from Goran to stand, staring, into the fireplace.

For a moment he stood thus, then leaned down. When he rose in his hand was the scorched remnant of a parchment, tightly rolled and tied with a bit of cloth of gold. Quickly his fingers untied the knot and with infinite tenderness unrolled the charred fragment of the scroll.

The characters inscribed on the parchment meant nothing to Goran's staring eyes, but he recognized, close by the charred edge, a representation of the castle of Chaga. A moment to glance at that and then Goran realized that Pharun's eyes were upon him. His rose to meet them.

In Pharun's eyes there was hatred; but more than hatred, sorrow; and more than sorrow, pity.

"You fool ...." Pharun whispered, but his eyes spoke volumes as they turned to the window. Hypnotized, Goran's eyes followed his brother's to see, not the rich fields and fertile valleys of his father's kingdom, but ...... nothing.

Understanding awakening in his mind, Goran turned again to his brother.

Once again Pharun's eyes were on the pale, cold breast of his loved one; then his hand was over the fire. Deliberately the fingers opened and, with deceptive slowness, the fragment of parchment drifted down toward the consuming flames.

Shemek.

From AsenRG:

Still having connection issues - I hope this works...

We've had an abundance of traders and dogs since the earliest recorded history...

Understood. This proverb may go bask as far as ancient times...

That's why I +1ed your post.

Thank you!

Amazing. Not in the good sense.

It was a very traumatic game session, both for the players and for myself. I think of the players who come to my house as my guests, and I like to make them welcome and feel that they are 'at home'. This guy was the same one with the age-inappropriate murder mystery , who was so wrapped up in his writing and his presentation that he ignored the players increasing discomfort, and my own. He then capped it off with this pair of 'royal visits', and did a great job of killing off the game group and my interest in gaming.

Of all the stupid reasons out there...
Not to mention, they're forgetting that you get as much as you give. If they want to only receive, they should try boxing and keep their guard down...

But to them these are very important things - it's all about their brand identity, and how they can exploit Tekumel for their own personal reasons. Phil and his creation have been largely lost in the rush; when I was told that Phil's vision of how his creation must be 'properly interpreted' - and that Phil himself was excluded from the category of 'proper interpreters', I knew that it was time to go...

And that's how I imagine games should go.

Me, too!

Last Saturday, we played without knowing the rules. We just trusted the GM to account for whatever we do, whenever it should matter! I'm pretty sure the NPCs didn't have stats, for example, and the target numbers were being set according to whatever we were doing. No proof, though, since we didn't know the target numbers.
And what do you know? Everybody had fun, from the guy with 17 years of play experience, to the one who was playing his first session. Only objections were when there was miscommunication - and not always even then...I didn't even mention when I had misunderstood what the GM asked.

I've had games like this; they are wonderful!

That might be true.But if you want to not lose those people, just show them. Our newest player also admitted he had begun the session with doubt, after the session ended. In the same sentence, he also declared himself hooked on RPGs now.

Good advice, here!