Thread: Questioning chirine ba kal

Originally Posted by Bren

I limit my heckling to his fetish for pole-arms.

Kidding aside though, the problem is that unless you restrict time in the game world to real time i.e. if you play on Tuesday (game world and real world) you can't find out what happened on Wednesday in the game world until Wednesday in the real world which would make playing out wilderness travel, research, or training both excruciatingly tedious and a logistical nightmare. Even in my most fanatical gaming periods, I did not game every single day for hours at a time. Not quite.

That's great if you know ahead of time that two (or more) groups are likely to be in the same place at the same time. The problem is what to do when the referee doesn't know that until after one of the groups has acted. While written movement and orders and simultaneous turns works in war games, it would be hideously tedious to do that all the time in an RPG.

Understood. Phil's campaign was a very long-term one, and he got to the point where he could pretty much predict what the two parties would get up to, and plan things accordingly. I've done the same, and stopped play and hit the 'pause' button until I could get everybody in the same room. Then the fun really starts, as the two (or more) groups interact - it becomes a Braunstein, in all reality...

Originally Posted by Bren

I limit my heckling to his fetish for pole-arms.

Small children should not be allowed near copies of Stone's 'Glossary'.

Originally Posted by Bren

Kidding aside though, the problem is that unless you restrict time in the game world to real time i.e. if you play on Tuesday (game world and real world) you can't find out what happened on Wednesday in the game world until Wednesday in the real world which would make playing out wilderness travel, research, or training both excruciatingly tedious and a logistical nightmare. Even in my most fanatical gaming periods, I did not game every single day for hours at a time. Not quite.

That's great if you know ahead of time that two (or more) groups are likely to be in the same place at the same time. The problem is what to do when the referee doesn't know that until after one of the groups has acted. While written movement and orders and simultaneous turns works in war games, it would be hideously tedious to do that all the time in an RPG.

Well, Phil is the only case I know of "real time equals game time." Gary figured a dungeon crawl was a week; prep, resting, the adventure, recovery. If we got beat up and went back to the surface and rested up and went back down, we burned two weeks that night. If we did that and then travelled overland, we ate up more time. Outdoor adventures were such that you could burn a month or more in a single night.

It wasn't very long before we were scattered all over the time line, and all over the world. Since there was no single overarching plot, it worked a treat. Most people didn't know what one another were doing.

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

Oh, very much so!!! I had a good laugh, many years later, when I got a book on Ancient Egyptian folk tales; I recognized more then a few of the stories I'd heard from various peasants and villagers, over the years.

That was one of the great bits about gaming with Phil. He was simply so educated, you learned simply by sitting at the table and listening.

Chirine,

Here's one for you. I first read this story in university while taking an elective in Ancient Egyptian History. This story always reminds me of the scene in Man of Gold when Harsan had to flee from the Sarku troops into the sewers of Purdimal with the tomb robber et.al. I'm not sure if Firu baYeker told this one. Enjoy.

The Tale of King Rhampsinitus

(A folk tale regarding the king who reigned in Egypt before Khufu was relayed by a priest to Herodotus, the Greek historian.)

The monarch was called Rhampsinitus. He built the western portion of the temple of Ptah. He also erected two statues — one to Summer, which faced the north and was worshipped, and the other to Winter, which faced the south but was never honoured.

The king possessed great wealth, and he caused to be constructed beside the palace a strong stone chamber in which he kept his riches. One of the builders, however, contrived to place a stone in such a manner that it could be removed from the outside.

It chanced that, after the king had deposited his treasure in the chamber, this builder was stricken with illness and knew his end was nigh. He had two sons, and he told them his secret regarding the stone, and gave them the measurements, so that they might locate it.

After the man died the sons went forth in the darkness of night, and when they found the stone they removed it. Then they entered the chamber, and carried away much treasure, and ere they departed they closed up the wall again.

The king marvelled greatly when he discovered that his riches had been plundered, for the seals of the door were unbroken, and he knew not whom to suspect. Again and again the robbers returned, and the treasure diminished greatly. At length the king caused traps to be laid in the chamber, for his guards, who kept watch at the entrances, were unable to prevent the mysterious robberies.

Soon after the brothers returned. They removed the stone, and one of them entered stealthily. He went towards the treasure, as was his custom, but was suddenly caught in a trap. In a moment he realized that escape was impossible, and he reflected that he would be put to death on the morrow, while his brother would be seized and similarly punished. So he said to himself: "I alone will die."

When he had thus resolved to save his brother, he called to him softly in the darkness, bidding him to enter cautiously. He made known his great misfortune, and said: "I cannot escape, nor dare you tarry long lest you be discovered, When they find me here I will be recognized, and they will seize you and put you to death. Cut off my head at once so that they may not know who I am, and thus save your own life."

With a sad heart, the brother did as he was desired and carried away the head. Ere he escaped in the darkness, he replaced the stone, and no man saw him.

When morning came the king was more astounded than ever to find a headless body entrapped in the treasure chamber, for the door had not been opened, and yet two men had entered and one had escaped. He commanded that the corpse should be hung on the palace wall and stationed guards at the place, bidding them to keep strict watch so that they might discover if anyone came to sorrow for the dead man. But no one came nigh.

Meanwhile the mother grieved in secret. Her heart was filled with anger because the body was exposed in such a manner, and she threatened to inform the king regarding all that had happened if her other son would not contrive to carry away the corpse. The young man attempted to dissuade her, but she only repeated her threat, and that firmly. He therefore made preparations to obtain possession of the corpse.

He hired several asses, and on their backs he put many skins of wine. In the evening he drove them towards the palace. When he drew near to the guards who kept watch over his brother's body, he removed the stoppers of some of the skins. The wine ran forth upon the highway, and he began to lament aloud and beat his head as if he were in sore distress. The soldiers ran towards the asses and seized them, and caught the wine in vessels, claiming it for themselves. At first the brother pretended to be angry and abused the men, but when they had pacified him, as they thought, he spoke to them pleasantly and began to make secure the stoppers of all the skins.

In a short time he was chatting with the guards, and pretended to be much amused when they bantered him over the accident. Then he invited them to drink, and they filled their flasks readily. So they began, and the young man poured out wine until they were all made very drunk.

When they fell asleep, the cunning fellow took down his brother's body, and laid it upon the back of one of the asses. Ere he went away he shaved the right cheeks of the soldiers. His mother welcomed him on his return in the darkness and was well pleased.

The king was very angry when he discovered how the robber had tricked the guards, but he was still determined to have him taken. He sent forth his daughter in disguise, and she waited for the criminal.

She spoke to several men, and at length she found him because he came to know that he was sought and desired to deal cunningly with her. So he addressed her, and she offered to be his bride if he would tell her the most artful thing and also the most wicked thing he had ever done.

He answered readily: "The most wicked thing I ever did was to cut off my brother's head when he was caught in a trap in the royal treasure chamber, and the most artful was to deceive the king's guards and carry away the body."

The princess tried to seize him, but he thrust forth his brother's arm, which he carried under his robe, and when she clutched it he made speedy escape.

Great was then the astonishment of the king at the cunning and daring of the robber. He caused a proclamation to be made, offering him a free pardon and a generous reward if he would appear at the palace before him.

The man went readily, and His Majesty was so delighted with his speeches and great ingenuity that he gave him his daughter in marriage.

Shemek

"Table Full O' Toys" and "Theater of the Mind" both work great. If you've been paying attention to Chirine's commentary on logistics, there's a hint as to one reason I lean towards "Theater of the Mind."

It also depends on the situation. Miniatures et al are great for illustrating things like exactly what the hell an Ahoggya is, or for the pomp and panoply of legions deployed for combat. Otherworldly things I think work better with a "theater of the mind" approach; no miniature, painting, movie image, et al, has ever evoked to my mind the sheer terror of

"Something was coming up behind them. What it was could not be seen: it was like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form, of man-shape maybe, yet greater; and a power and terror seemed to be in it and go before it...Its streaming mane kindled and blazed behind it. In its right hand was a blade like a stabbing tongue of fire; in its left it held a whip of many thongs....His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadows about it reached out like two vast wings. It raised the whip, and the thongs whined and cracked."

Now THAT's a Balrog.

Originally Posted by Spinachcat

I'm gonna borrow Gronan's colorful term here. Please ignore the fuckmortons who put down your playstyle ESPECIALLY since lots and lots of RPGers are big fans of minis and props. Hell, the Savage Worlds RPG system is very popular because its specifically built to be friendly to gamers who love tables full of toys. The joke is that Savage Worlds Tekumel would probably get lots of attention and the fuckmortons be thrice damned.

I've played a ton of RPGs both "theater of the mind" and "table full of toys" and both are great fun in their own right. I would definitely love to learn more about Tekumel gameplay and the views on this thread tell me I'm not alone.

So I'm sure MANY gamers would be interested in your videos showing all your decades of props and Tekumel goodies.

Thank you for the encouragement! It gets old, sometimes, when I mention what we did back in the day, and what I still do now.

Ran across a set of audio CDs of some of my game sessions from the middle 2000s, and the videotapes from last year's Gary Con. We'll see about uploading them, so you can see and hear the kind of things that I do. And we'll see about some new video, too.

Originally Posted by rawma

I feel bad that you don't seem to get invited to gaming groups and meet-ups to actually play. Maybe you should make all these people who want museum curator lectures pre-order your book.

Yeah, this gets old, too. I've found that I get two sorts of people; gamers who want to know what it was like 'back then', and who then have brain stalls over the "everything not forbidden by the rules is permitted" / "everything not permitted by the rules is forbidden" thing. Free Kriegspiel seems to confuse them, as while they really know the game mechanics, they have trouble with a gamer where the rules are 'invisible'. The other kind, sorry to say, are simply greedy - and I have to be careful and worry about 'loss prevention'...

I don't know where my gaming will be going in the future. We'll have to see.

Good idea - we'll think about this...

Originally Posted by Gronan of Simmerya

Small children should not be allowed near copies of Stone's 'Glossary'.

Well, Phil is the only case I know of "real time equals game time." Gary figured a dungeon crawl was a week; prep, resting, the adventure, recovery. If we got beat up and went back to the surface and rested up and went back down, we burned two weeks that night. If we did that and then travelled overland, we ate up more time. Outdoor adventures were such that you could burn a month or more in a single night.

It wasn't very long before we were scattered all over the time line, and all over the world. Since there was no single overarching plot, it worked a treat. Most people didn't know what one another were doing.

Very true - which is why I keep my copy handy in the game room...

Agreed. Phil's campaign style was different then Dave and Gary's, and I'd be willing to bet that is was because of his long-standing relationship with Tony Bath - he had sent Phil a manuscript copy of his book, for Phil's use and comments. I don't think that the Dynamic Duo were as 'tight' in their campaigns, from what I saw, and I'd suspect that their campaign style was a lot 'looser' then the Society of Ancients method.

Originally Posted by Shemek hiTankolel

Chirine,

Here's one for you. I first read this story in university while taking an elective in Ancient Egyptian History. This story always reminds me of the scene in Man of Gold when Harsan had to flee from the Sarku troops into the sewers of Purdimal with the tomb robber et.al. I'm not sure if Firu baYeker told this one. Enjoy.

The Tale of King Rhampsinitus

(A folk tale regarding the king who reigned in Egypt before Khufu was relayed by a priest to Herodotus, the Greek historian.)

The monarch was called Rhampsinitus. He built the western portion of the temple of Ptah. He also erected two statues — one to Summer, which faced the north and was worshipped, and the other to Winter, which faced the south but was never honoured.

The king possessed great wealth, and he caused to be constructed beside the palace a strong stone chamber in which he kept his riches. One of the builders, however, contrived to place a stone in such a manner that it could be removed from the outside.

It chanced that, after the king had deposited his treasure in the chamber, this builder was stricken with illness and knew his end was nigh. He had two sons, and he told them his secret regarding the stone, and gave them the measurements, so that they might locate it.

After the man died the sons went forth in the darkness of night, and when they found the stone they removed it. Then they entered the chamber, and carried away much treasure, and ere they departed they closed up the wall again.

The king marvelled greatly when he discovered that his riches had been plundered, for the seals of the door were unbroken, and he knew not whom to suspect. Again and again the robbers returned, and the treasure diminished greatly. At length the king caused traps to be laid in the chamber, for his guards, who kept watch at the entrances, were unable to prevent the mysterious robberies.

Soon after the brothers returned. They removed the stone, and one of them entered stealthily. He went towards the treasure, as was his custom, but was suddenly caught in a trap. In a moment he realized that escape was impossible, and he reflected that he would be put to death on the morrow, while his brother would be seized and similarly punished. So he said to himself: "I alone will die."

When he had thus resolved to save his brother, he called to him softly in the darkness, bidding him to enter cautiously. He made known his great misfortune, and said: "I cannot escape, nor dare you tarry long lest you be discovered, When they find me here I will be recognized, and they will seize you and put you to death. Cut off my head at once so that they may not know who I am, and thus save your own life."

With a sad heart, the brother did as he was desired and carried away the head. Ere he escaped in the darkness, he replaced the stone, and no man saw him.

When morning came the king was more astounded than ever to find a headless body entrapped in the treasure chamber, for the door had not been opened, and yet two men had entered and one had escaped. He commanded that the corpse should be hung on the palace wall and stationed guards at the place, bidding them to keep strict watch so that they might discover if anyone came to sorrow for the dead man. But no one came nigh.

Meanwhile the mother grieved in secret. Her heart was filled with anger because the body was exposed in such a manner, and she threatened to inform the king regarding all that had happened if her other son would not contrive to carry away the corpse. The young man attempted to dissuade her, but she only repeated her threat, and that firmly. He therefore made preparations to obtain possession of the corpse.

He hired several asses, and on their backs he put many skins of wine. In the evening he drove them towards the palace. When he drew near to the guards who kept watch over his brother's body, he removed the stoppers of some of the skins. The wine ran forth upon the highway, and he began to lament aloud and beat his head as if he were in sore distress. The soldiers ran towards the asses and seized them, and caught the wine in vessels, claiming it for themselves. At first the brother pretended to be angry and abused the men, but when they had pacified him, as they thought, he spoke to them pleasantly and began to make secure the stoppers of all the skins.

In a short time he was chatting with the guards, and pretended to be much amused when they bantered him over the accident. Then he invited them to drink, and they filled their flasks readily. So they began, and the young man poured out wine until they were all made very drunk.

When they fell asleep, the cunning fellow took down his brother's body, and laid it upon the back of one of the asses. Ere he went away he shaved the right cheeks of the soldiers. His mother welcomed him on his return in the darkness and was well pleased.

The king was very angry when he discovered how the robber had tricked the guards, but he was still determined to have him taken. He sent forth his daughter in disguise, and she waited for the criminal.

She spoke to several men, and at length she found him because he came to know that he was sought and desired to deal cunningly with her. So he addressed her, and she offered to be his bride if he would tell her the most artful thing and also the most wicked thing he had ever done.

He answered readily: "The most wicked thing I ever did was to cut off my brother's head when he was caught in a trap in the royal treasure chamber, and the most artful was to deceive the king's guards and carry away the body."

The princess tried to seize him, but he thrust forth his brother's arm, which he carried under his robe, and when she clutched it he made speedy escape.

Great was then the astonishment of the king at the cunning and daring of the robber. He caused a proclamation to be made, offering him a free pardon and a generous reward if he would appear at the palace before him.

The man went readily, and His Majesty was so delighted with his speeches and great ingenuity that he gave him his daughter in marriage.

Shemek

Yes, he did, and I have a copy in my little book of folk tales. Still bears repeating here, as I think a lot of folks might find it useful! Thank you!!!

Originally Posted by Gronan of Simmerya

"Table Full O' Toys" and "Theater of the Mind" both work great. If you've been paying attention to Chirine's commentary on logistics, there's a hint as to one reason I lean towards "Theater of the Mind."

It also depends on the situation. Miniatures et al are great for illustrating things like exactly what the hell an Ahoggya is, or for the pomp and panoply of legions deployed for combat. Otherworldly things I think work better with a "theater of the mind" approach; no miniature, painting, movie image, et al, has ever evoked to my mind the sheer terror of

"Something was coming up behind them. What it was could not be seen: it was like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form, of man-shape maybe, yet greater; and a power and terror seemed to be in it and go before it...Its streaming mane kindled and blazed behind it. In its right hand was a blade like a stabbing tongue of fire; in its left it held a whip of many thongs....His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadows about it reached out like two vast wings. It raised the whip, and the thongs whined and cracked."

Now THAT's a Balrog.

Oh, I do agree; if you can do it, then it's a great way to run a game. Like I think we've said a few times on this thread, it's all a spectrum of game play. Me, I can do this myself, and I enjoy doing it; I do like the little actors on the stage and the props - but it's something that may not be for everyone.

I think a lot of the negative comments I've gotten over the past years are more a reaction to the way D&D 4th edition used miniatures, and how much of a 'backlash' there was to it. When I explain how I still do 'free kriegspiel' in RPG game sessions, and don't use a grid of squares, or hexes, I seem to loose people who are not at all familiar with the concept. A form of culture shock, if you will.

It does make it feel a little lonely hereabouts, though.