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Thread: Questioning chirine ba kal

  1. #3021
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    From Greentongue:
    What is the consensus about using NPCs to "guide" players actions.
    Providing correct options and answers to the situations and puzzles that confront the players?


    I'm assuming that you're asking what I saw in my time. The short answer is 'no'; NPCs were there to provide information and rumors, not to show us the 'right way' or the 'correct answer'. It was out jobs as players to do this.

    Should an effort be made to "save the game" by NPC intervention?

    No, I don't think so. I've seen games like this, and people got bored and walked away. I hate to say it, but if the game blows up then the game blows up. Learn from the disaster, and don;t do it again, if you can help it.

    Are the days of "win or lose on your own merit" long past?

    If they are, then I'm getting out of gaming. I can build one hack of a railway in all that space in the basement.

    How do you feel playing in a game that if you really get in over your head the GM will save you?

    I never played in a game like this; Phil and Dave were quite up front that if you did something stupid, you had to deal with what happened. I run my games the same way, and I think I would politely leave any game like this that I found myself in. It's not what I'm there for.

    EPT's "Save or Die" type of rules make random chance deadly.

    Exactly. When we did something in Phil's campaign, we had to deal with that and what happened.

  2. #3022
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bren View Post
    The consensus seems to be that players don't enjoy that sort of game. And the more guiding and solving is done by NPCs the less players tend to like it.


    (1) No.

    (2) Save the game from what?

    (1) A lot of things in an RPG aren't a simple case of win or lose.

    (2) No.

    Somewhere in the neighborhood of annoyed and/or bored.
    I'd agree with all of this.

  3. #3023
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shemek hiTankolel View Post
    I think that you bring up some valid questions, and here is a very long reply.

    In my personal experience any one who has DM'ed a long running campaign has had, on occasion, to rely upon an NPC to advance the plot and sometimes this may be a subtle nudge to guide the party on to the right path. Unless I am mistaken the role of Firu baYeker, in Phil’s game, served this purpose. Now I don’t advocate having an NPC standing in the wings ready to provide the answer to the riddle that will save the day, or show them where all the traps are in the corridor. This is pointless, and one would have to ask themselves what’s the point of having a gaming group if the DM is going present both the challenge and solution without giving the players the chance try and solve the problem on their own? However, in my opinion I think that subtle, and I mean really subtle (read minimal), clues and directions are an integral part of any game, but just like cake a piece is great, but eating a whole cake at one sitting is not so great.

    Yes and no. The only way that I could conceive of “‘save(ing) the game’ by NPC intervention” would be if the game were going to be destroyed due to my actions, either intentionally or as a result of my ignorance. For example, if the party are entitled a Saving Throw and I either refuse to let them have one or I don’t know that they are supposed to get one, and this leads to them being destroyed, then in all conscience, and in the spirit of fair play I would have to have some kind of intervention. However, if they are destroyed as a result of their own actions, stupidity, inattention, etc., well, then so be it. Shit happens.

    Win or lose, I guess depends on how you want to define these terms within the context of the game. For me, personally, everything that the party achieves is down to their own merits. My role is and has always been to be an impartial presenter of the story, and controller of the antagonists. Any success enjoyed or loss suffered has been due to the actions of the players.

    Again, like I mentioned above, I present the situation in an unbiased manner, and if a player gets into a situation where they are over their heads well so be it. I will never maliciously place them there. I remember once I had a very experienced player who was new to Tekumel. His character was a foreigner in Jakalla (kind of a barbarian in a boat), and I and the rest of the group spent some time giving him an overview of what Tsolyanu was like, the type of society, etc., He refused to accept the notion that in such a well ordered society one cannot walk around like it’s a typical D&D frontier town. He left the foreigner’s quarter (without permission), robbed and assaulted some wealthy individuals, publicly defaced a temple of Vimuhla, slandered the religious institutions as whole, and tried to take on the city guard. He was quickly subdued, and summarily impaled by the local captain of the city guard. He complained bitterly about how stupid the situation was that I “presented” him with, and that there was no way that his character had even a slight chance of survival. The fact that his character’s demise was totally of his own doing, and that he intentionally put himself into the situation where his guy was going to executed, after being warned by the other players that what he was doing was not a good idea was irrelevant to the player.

    I am not sure what type of random chance you are specifically referring to. Do you mean Saving Throws, or are you referring to random encounters in general? I personally think that there should always be a chance of a character dieing in a game. After all, the same rules apply to the NPC’s and monsters. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander.

    Shemek.
    Agreed, with one note. Firu ba Yeker only gave us information, in the form or rumors or gossip. It was always up to us to do the legwork to find out what was really happening. After that, is was then up to us to make the decision to follow up and go off on an adventure. Phil always had a handful of plot lines handy for us to pick and choose from; I'm still finding out about the ones that we didn't look into!

  4. #3024
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hrugga View Post
    Funny I was taking a break today and read this...GM's Guide To Adventure Writing by James Raggi,


    http://roleplayingtips.com/readissue.php?number=489

    It seems the way to go would be as nuetral as possible. Lord Asen and Lord Shemek bring up good points as well. Good luck.

    H:0)
    I'd agree with that; it's the way Phil played, and I still do it that way. I think, and players I've had seem to confirm, that it's more of a challenge that way.

  5. #3025
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gronan of Simmerya View Post
    Absolutely not should NPC's "save" the "game."

    The game is whatever happens. If the players make a bad choice and all the PCs die, so be it.

    And like Bren said, "save" it from what? Once you start talking like that you are nearing the idea of the referee deciding how things "should" go, which notion should be consigned to the corrupted, worm-ridden filth of Sarku's lowest hells.
    Agreed. In no uncertain terms.

  6. #3026
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    Well, that is my method of play but was wondering if, since I don't play all that much, maybe I wasn't "doing it right".

    The real challenge is making games with lower level characters fun.
    If you start them higher, it is assumed they know more, when they don't.
    Then you get the crash and burn from bumbling.
    Leaves a bad taste IMHO.
    =

  7. #3027
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greentongue View Post
    Well, that is my method of play but was wondering if, since I don't play all that much, maybe I wasn't "doing it right".

    The real challenge is making games with lower level characters fun.
    If you start them higher, it is assumed they know more, when they don't.
    Then you get the crash and burn from bumbling.
    Leaves a bad taste IMHO.
    =
    The very, very, very first time EVER I ran D&D at the University of Minnesota in October 1973... before I'd even met Phil, before I'd met Chirine... the first level adventurers were totally wiped out by a gang of 4 kobolds.

    After five seconds of silence, one of the players... either Moose or Olav, I no longer remember which... said "Let's roll new characters and get those little fuckers!"

    If that is not the reaction of your players to a TPK, get different players.
    I don't care if you respect me, just buy my fucking book.

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  8. #3028
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    Quote Originally Posted by chirine ba kal View Post

    If they are, then I'm getting out of gaming. I can build one hack of a railway in all that space in the basement.
    You and me both. Do I need to bring any tools over or do you have it covered?
    I don't care if you respect me, just buy my fucking book.

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  9. #3029
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shemek hiTankolel View Post
    He left the foreigner’s quarter (without permission), robbed and assaulted some wealthy individuals, publicly defaced a temple of Vimuhla, slandered the religious institutions as whole, and tried to take on the city guard.
    The only area of possible confusion to one new to Tekumel should be in regards to what the form of execution would be, not the fact of an execution.
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  10. #3030
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gronan of Simmerya View Post
    The very, very, very first time EVER I ran D&D at the University of Minnesota in October 1973... before I'd even met Phil, before I'd met Chirine... the first level adventurers were totally wiped out by a gang of 4 kobolds.

    After five seconds of silence, one of the players... either Moose or Olav, I no longer remember which... said "Let's roll new characters and get those little fuckers!"

    If that is not the reaction of your players to a TPK, get different players.
    That type of players seem to be in short supply these days.
    I've found the more common reaction is, "Lets play something else."
    Having a million other choices makes doing something else much easier.
    =

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