Thread: Questioning chirine ba kal

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

And I'd be expecting that the two cartels / clans you mention would be in competition to feed my troops, too. Both would vie to get my custom, and I'd also expect that they'd meet 'on the side' to make sure that everyone got a decent price for the fish. "People, all I want is to feed my troops. Bill me, and we'll all be happy. Cheat me, and i'll be very unhappy. Are we all clear on this? Good, good..."

To what extremes could "be in competition" be expected to go?
Skulduggery, slander, murder, poison, impersonation, diversions, ...

Would the imperial authorities need to get involved? If so, what form would that take? Would it have to be for government contracts?

On the other hand, how much collusion is there between clans that provide the same resources/services?
=

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

Is this helping? Am I explaining things decently for you? (I worry...)

YES
It is good to know that "I'm doing it right" for many things and it provides a lot of ideas for things I haven't had the pleasure of getting to yet.

One idea I had was smuggling a chest of sex toys into the chambers of "A Good Clan Girl" but wasn't sure if this would effect their marriage proposal or be ignored.
What does being "A Good Clan Girl" actually mean in game terms? *

Another idea was the recovery of a favored heir that had been kidnapped (and transported unknowingly) to effect inter-clan negotiations. **

Another was the recovery of a body part being retained in a box to prevent its owner's regenerating. (reproductive organ) *

Maybe a little too * "sex" and ** "pedophile" orientated
but "Bad People" for motivation to oppose, without being just "loot".
I like things to be "Black & White" in my Sword & Planet style games without being graphic.

From what you say, these may be a little too "above ground"?

How likely is it that the "country bumpkin/foreign scum" would be scapegoated?
Would the Character be more valuable as an "unmarked piece in the game" or just considered disposable? (pure GM call?)
Does who they know / who knows them matter the most when things go badly?
=

Originally Posted by Old Geezer

Until fairly recently, as in, since the 18th or 19th century, that's been the default for many societies.

Look at 13t century England. Fines and or public ridicule (stocks, pillory) for crimes such as selling short measure. But a thief was simply hanged.

Fines, mutilation, and capital punishment have been the most common judicial penalties since Hammurabi.

I'm not arguing for prison, OG. I mean fines, ostracism, mutilation, exile, slavery, work camps and capital punishment.

Originally Posted by Old Geezer

So... no shit, there we were.

(By the way, I was wrong about getting clan membership after winning that ritual battle. I was not adopted into a clan, though I DID get my first "Gold of Glory.")

It was the siege of Sunraya, which is an ancient Tsauq word meaning "anus of a Chlen beast."

This was a huge siege, and there were a TON of Tsolyani troops there, as well as administration and hangers on.

I was a Molkhar (commander of half a legion) in the Legion of Serqu, Sword of the Empire. And among the administrative and ritual functionaries was the Lady Nlel, a ritual priestess of the Temple of Karakan, Lord of War of Stability, and my patron diety.

She was also the sister of my General.

SO one hot, sultry night I'm out overseeing some of my lads energetically digging a mine, mostly because it was too damned hot and humid to sleep. So Lady Nlel, not being able to sleep either, comes out to visit me.

She is wearing a light gauze kilt, and sandals. Period.

Phil, having taken Hitchcock's point that the imagination is stronger than reality, says only that she is i) very, very lovely and ii) nearly naked.

I was 21 or 22 at the time.

So she reclines on a rock, artlessly striking an incredibly beautiful pose, and starts talking to me.

My character, envisioning his General looking at "One Thousand and One Agonizing Variations on Impalement," is very cautious.

Now, Lady Nlel was NOT an Aridani, one of the independent women of Tsolyanu. She was what Phil called a "good little clan girl." For what it's worth, by the bye, that was Phil's invariable description of a Tsolyani woman who was not Aridani... "good little clan girl."

I don't create the news, I merely report it.

Anyway, she start chatting with Mighty Molkar Kornume... small talk, really. Being paranoid and acutely aware that there is no privacy, I talk about my duty to the Emperor, my duty to my God the Lord Karakan, loyalty to my most exalted General, the nobility of serving the Petal Throne, etc, etc, etc.

To a young woman who is a ritual priestess of the God of War of Stability. The effect, unknown to me, was like quoting Romeo and Juliet to an overly-romantic seventeen year old girl.

The next morning, my Lord General Serqu returned my salute, but then spoke to me in a much more casual manner than usual, smiling and clapping me on the shoulder.

I was married to his sister shortly thereafter.

It was wonderful because it was so totally unexpected. I was merely trying to avoid taking improper advantage of a young lady (and subsequent messy and painful death,) and the fact that I well and truly seduced her was entirely unmeant.

OK, that was a lovely story and a masterful turn on Phil's side as a GM after you gave him no rope to hang you by!

Originally Posted by Old Geezer

Also.

I've spoken about the "End Game" of D&D, where you hit Name Level and got a stronghold, and the game was no longer about wandering through dungeons risking awful and messy death for gold.

Tekumel has its "End Game" too, and once I married the mouthwateringly lovely Nlel, I started playing this end game.

Because not only did I marry the sister of my General... I was adopted into his (rather high) Clan, the Golden Sunburst clan.

Being a member of a high ranking clan changes everything. For one thing, money ceased to have any meaning. I would chat with one of my uncles... every male in my clan more than 5 years older than me was my uncle, those about my age were brothers, those more than a few years younger were my nephews...

Anyway, I'd chat with an uncle or two, and they'd either say "That is entirely suitable," or "You have no need of that." And I'd either get what I wanted or not.

I had no desire to play politics, which is why I was strictly an Imperialist. But my clan had uses for a young, heroic, and not too bright young general. My legion would be given orders, and I, as PC, would do the best I could. But behind the scenes, the assignments I was given and the deeds of renown I did worked to the advantage of my clan.

Also, the Tsolyani clan has a very pre-Enlightenment attitude.... I, as an individual, was far less important than my clan. My clan would not waste me needlessly, but if there was advantage that somehow could be had for my clan by sacrificing me, I would be sacrificed.

The clan provided me with everything I needed and almost everything I wanted, but on the other hand, my every action was expected to reflect well on the Clan.

And Chrine, my trusted aide de camp, and I got along famously despite the fact that he followed a god of Change and I followed a god of Stability, because we were, politically speaking, both Imperialists -- "I serve the Petal Throne, no matter who occupies it."

Very good observation, OG.
See, you describe pretty much the state of the game my players like the most. And it is a variant of "being a noble", not unlike D&D.
I'm pretty sure my regular players consider everything before that to be an intro. It's been that way for almost a decade now... Though I admit this thread gave me some ideas how to improve on it, it's been that way for almost a decade now!
Plus les choses changent...

Originally Posted by Greentongue

So, for you, a SNS is a special location that provides an unexpected event(s) and not a special opponent/organization?

Why should it be either/or?

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

Let me take a run at this, if I may...

Generally, the new 'fresh off the boat' types will arrive at the dock with an introduction to somebody who's already there: "What you want to do is go see Cousin Woofel, who moved to Jakalla about five years ago and has made it big - he'll set you up right, don't you worry!" It may not be a clan, it may be Somebody We Know, but one would usually have an introduction of some sort to Somebody.

Once one arrives, then Cousin Woofel finds out what you are good at, and then provides you with further introductions to people that he knows who might be able to find you a position of some sort. For example, the classic gambit is that Woofel introduces you to Lady Mnella, who regularly hires people like you for little jaunts in the Underworld. This gets you a reputation, and references, and further introductions as Lady Mnella introduces you to her friends as a reliable sort of person who can do those odd jobs that need doing. It's all about favors and connections...

And one can get a patron, but it's not vital; patrons are useful if you are looking to get into the higher reaches of society in a hurry, and are often sources of quick cash, but there is usually a trade-off in that they usually want one to do higher-risk things.

Oh, yes, you can always bluff; I've seen it done. However, I do not advise getting caught; you'll get laughed at, at best, and your reputation ruined. The invitations to all the best parties will dry up, and you'll find yourself living in the gutter in pretty short order.

Yes, the Market Police will be concerned if somebody complains and gets them involved; Cousin Woofel finds out you've been fleeced at dice by one of the locals, and he'll usually complain to a friend, who will have a friend slap the cheater around for you. On the other hand, if the police see you getting attacked or something, they will come to your aid at once. They'll deal with the attacker, and politely mention that they are selling tickets to The Annual Market Police Ball. You would then ask about buying a ticket, and you'd also make sure to tip them for thrashing the lout who attacked you. They will then usually offer to keep an eye on you, to make sure you don't get any more trouble from anyone, as they don't want to have any trouble in the city - and if you are alive and well, then they can get the occasional 'consideration' from you - more tickets to the Ball, Noble Lord?

They will not, however, protect you from your own stupidity - if you do something really dumb, like attack somebody in broad daylight, they'll be on you in a moment...

I need to have that summary printed out...

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

It was very, very nasty at the table, and it made for very uncomfortable game sessions. One of the guys would announce that he was going to mess with you that session, and dive right into doing so.

I remember this happening on my table.
The griefer ended up with all his followers temporarily poisoned in another place, and his main character surrounded by assassins under the command of the offended player.
"Give me a reason not to kill you, please?"
Bottom line, it tends to end badly for any griefer that shows bad intentions. Sooner or later they pick on someone who considers backstabbing an "I win" game. And griefer players usually suck at it!

I think he would have; he just winged it on the occupational / career paths, as he'd been around enough to do it.

Great, and now I'm running a game with almost this rules combo!

Oh, yes, I was a very high-value target! Which is why I hired Vrisa as a body-guard; I wanted to stay alive as long as I could. Later on, my legion assigned six of the toughest troopers we had as my full-time personal body guard, and in battles I normally had two sections (20 to a section) of picked soldiers as a larger guard unit. Due to my command style, which was getting as up-front and personal as possible, they usually wound up in the thick of things as the legion's crack shock troops; after I went through all the other-planar energy available, I'd be heavy infantry and at the point of attack with the reserves. Used to drive the poor Adjutant crazy, sad to say.

I understand the Adjutant. Preventing is always best, and you being that predictably aggressive is bad for his nerves, I'm sure!

Oddly enough, I know Baron Ald personally; we're actually pretty good friends. Vrisa is his clan cousin, the Vishetru clan of Saa Alliqui - the royal family.

Can you put an end to the war?
If you did, what would your god think?

Oh, yes, I'd get sent out on diplomatic missions all the time! I was a big lot of intimidation, especially with either Vrisa or my legion (and sometimes both!) in tow. The message being sent was usually "Mess with the Imperium, and Chirine here burns your country down." It made for a lot of fun adventures!!!

Well, I guess it would be more subtle with, say, Livyanu. "Mess with us and this guy stops helping you" is almost as good, though.

Get "Bethorm". It's S&G, all cleaned up, and plays very well.

I'm a Kickstarter backer of Bethorm...
S&G interests me for the background. Though I'm reasonably certain by now that extrapolation would get me pretty close!

Yeah, I'd agree - once I take the field, things get very nasty very quickly...

War is all about logistics, though. You can only have Chirine win the day for you if you can get him to the right battle, in time and in reasonably good shape!

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

3. Pretty cmmon, you have it down quite well, actually.
4. Yes, to both.
6. Which is why I like the Dark Fable line; it's all the 'civilian' types that you'd find in the palace or clan house. It's Ancient Egyptian, which fits right in with Tekumel. Great figures, and fun to paint!!!

4. Great!
6. Interesting figures, indeed.

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

No, they didn't do any of this; it was all right up front, right across the table, and things would get very nasty very quickly during game sessions. One of them would simply tell you that he was out to get you that night, and you'd wind up fighting him and any allies all night. Very nasty, and very little Tekumel got played. Which is why we split...

Splitting has worked for us as well last time we had a griefer!

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

It was a great night; we had an immense amount of fun with this. The next day, we were trying to have a talk in private to sort this out, and wound up doing the 'breakfast in the bastion' scene from "Three/Four Musketeers"; we'd all see the movie version with Michael York, and we all knew the dialog by heart. So, we did the scene - "This wince does not travel well!" - and finally tipped the parapet over onto the people trying to attack us.

It was wonderful - maybe a SNS kind of thing?

If Phil had seen the movie version as well, I'd bet on it being an SNS...

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

This. OG became the Glorious General, with his own legion, and a very well-connected nobleman. Pretty good for an guy fresh off the boat, eh? Yes, OG was one of the people brought into the campaign that way.

I got a reputation as a very good staff officer, and after a career as Imperial errand-boy and trouble-shooter (usually literally) I got to be a provincial governor and eventually a condottieri general with my own legion. Not bad, for a kid from the Chakas...

How fresh off the boat was OG when he was married off?

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

Well, yes, at least with Phil. Most of the 'opposition' was kind of the run-of-the-mill normal stuff; horrible creatures, nasty politicians, evil-doers of all sorts, that kind of thing. It was all kind of all in a days work for us adventurers...

I don't recall any SNS opponents; Phil just didn't play that way. Cool locations, fiendish traps, amazing stuff - that was his style.

Ancient stuff was pretty common in the Underworlds or in the installations of the Ancients. Outside of those two main sources, they were pretty rare. The Undying Wizards usually had a lot of this kind of thing as well, but we tried to avoid them as much as we could; the vast majority of them are nuttier then fruitcakes.

The EPT lists are the common items - there's a list of unique items, too. Great stuff to have, but hard to find and you had to fight the nasties to get them...

I get it that "bring me five Eyes" wasn't a popular fetch quest...
Good!

Originally Posted by Bren

That is odd. And stupidly confrontational. I've never seen anyone play quite like that. I see why you split off from that group.

Now in my youth I'd have been sorely tempted to gather a few friends together and see what useful stuff I could take off their corpses. For a several weeks in a row. At which point, first levels probably still have a few kraitars and some armor or weapons I can issue to new followers. Maybe by then it would be lesson learned.

I honestly fail to see how this would be any fun for you, yourself. Killing first level characters for the starting equipment sounds like an MMO, and they're the definition of boring to me.
Maybe I'm the weird one, or am I misunderstanding you?

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

Yep; it was awful, and not any fun at all. We were much happier after we left, and so was Phil. Over the years, they did try to pull some tricks on us, but we simply reused to play along with them.

I'd agree with you, but that kind of thing was what they wanted - the results were not important, the in-fighting was the goal in and of itself. They never did learn the lesson, either; several of them that I've talked to still play that way, and wonder why they don't get players...

You should have got them arrested.

And you can give them an answer. A mirror.

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

You're very welcome! Yes, the original approach was all right, but even Phil gave it up after people got some play experience under their belts. I had the same thing happen to me at Gary Con, and OG (and thank again for playing, Glorious General!) commented that one of the big reasons we had such a good time was that all of the players had had thirty years' of game play experience in RPGs, when back in the day we'd had none...

Re the labor, yes. When Vrisa used to go shopping in the marketplace, I'd be there to watch her back; we'd accumulate a retinue of small to medium children, market urchins of all sorts, who would tag along to 'be helpful. We never, every carried anything ourselves - this ad hoc and then later formal retinue would do all of that for us. (For a suitable - and usually small - tip, of course.) I eventually hired some dozen bearers for a trip from Meku to Fasiltum, and they have stayed with me ever since - I even have my own personal Chlen-cart for my luggage.

This is based entirely on Phil's time in India, by the way. Word would get out that 'Barker Sahib' would be coming to the village to learn their language, and Phil told us that the entire village would turn out at either the bus stop of the train station to meet him. The menfolk, supervised by the village headman and elders, would divide up his luggage to carry, while the womenfolk would fuss over him and find out what he liked to eat. The entire procession would then walk to the village, where Phil would get started with his research and everyone would sit around watching the fun. Phil was very worried, initially, that he would not b able to pay them for their services, but he learned very quickly that they refused to be paid - it was an honor for them to be the hosts of the learned scholar, the Barker Sahib. So, Phil would carefully negotiate with the headman and the elders to see if they would accept a gift as a token of his esteem, which they would, and he found that it cost him all of fifty pice, which was a whopping $0.25. He said that this really brought home to him the relative values of moneys in different level of society - as a poor Fulbright Scholar, he was vasty wealthy in comparison to these rural communities.

This carried over into Tekumel, as you might gather. And we got to see his photos of all this too - very wonderful, and I use this in my games...

The lack of iron is way overblown by quite a few fans. The Ancients mined out the bulk of the ores back in their time, but there's plenty left for dietary needs and such. It's simply very hard to locate and work, with the technology we have available. For a very good discussion of this, see Neil Stephensen's "Quicksilver" books and look for the section on making 'Wootz', or look it up on the web. There's iron and steel to be had, as well as more exotic alloys, but you really have to work at it.

(If I may, I'd like to thank Phil - where ever he is - for the tulwar he gave me for my 25th birthday as a thank-you for my Tekumel work; I found out, decades later, that it's made of wootz. I nearly fainted...)

Oh, yes, you do get cartels and alliances like this! Some clans specialize in some things or trades, and effectively have a monopoly; others are more generally based, and trade with the others for their products - when I needed to rebuild the palace in Hekellu, I contracted with a 'general' clan, which then sub-contracted with the specialists for their unique services.

And I'd be expecting that the two cartels / clans you mention would be in competition to feed my troops, too. Both would vie to get my custom, and I'd also expect that they'd meet 'on the side' to make sure that everyone got a decent price for the fish. "People, all I want is to feed my troops. Bill me, and we'll all be happy. Cheat me, and i'll be very unhappy. Are we all clear on this? Good, good..."

This reminds me of a trip to SA country as well. Though, being a Bulgarian, I don't need being reminded that other people are richer!
A wootz steel blade is an amazing gift, indeed.

And the last speech just made me laugh.

Originally Posted by Old Geezer

I won't have much time for long posts until the weekend, but...

There is an element of "different strokes for different folks."

A number of the Other Group (tm)(pat pend)(reg u.s. pat off) folks were fanatical Diplomacy players. We all knew Dippy and played it some; but those guys were hard core, of the "weekend long marathon sessions of game after game" and when "what shall we play" came up, their answer was ALWAYS Diplomacy.

I think that when you concentrate enough on one game, you start to play everything in that style.

My 2 Qirgal.

Quoted for truth!

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

Yeah, well, they weren't all that skilled as "Diplomacy" players, the very few times that I played. Subtle, they were not.

They could be really good players out at Phil's when they wanted to, but they liked to screw people over a lot. Certainly 'different strokes for different folks', which is why we spilt off and had a whole lot of fun for over a decade. I do not tolerate this kind of crap in my own group, and we've managed to keep going for over another decade.

And yes, I was the GM who kicked Lady Anka'a hi Qoyelmu - one of Phil's original players from 1974 - out of my group for this kind of malarky. I practice what I preach, and all that.

I wonder, what is it with griefer players? I've never seen one that would make a good player at any game that requires subtlety, either!

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

Well, it depends on how the clans/cartels involved have been dealing with each other in the past. Some clans are at deadly feud with each other, and have been for centuries, and there's no holds barred; all of the nastier stuff takes place out at sea or in the Underworlds, so as not to get the Imperium involved. This kind of feuding is forbidden out in the open, per the Great Concordat - see also the Ancient Egyptian concept of Ma'at - so open conflict is not allowed.

The Imperium will get involved only if there is open fighting going on, and then the troops will simply crush both sides. Anybody found guilty of revolt, rebellion, or tax evasion gets the high ride, and the surviving clan members are told to keep it down to a dull roar or they all get the same treatment.

Supply contracts are let by the individual legion commander, not by the Imperium's Palace of Ever-Glorious War; legion are paid for by individual patrons, temples, and clans. The only legions paid for directly by the Imperium are the OAL and the Legion of Ketl, who run the Imperial prisons. Everything else is paid for individually, which is why there is so much skulduggery and chaos in the logistics of the armies of the Five Empires. You also have to move the supplies, which is the job of the 'transport' clans, which allow for more peculation and skulduggery. And all of which provides more options for adventures...

And yes, there is also lots of collusion, too. When the money is flowing, like it was for the war, then all the contractors / clans tend to collude to make sure that the goods flow and the cash keeps coming - the "you help me today, and I'll help you tomorrow" sort of thing.

Is this helping? Am I explaining things decently for you? (I worry...)

EDIT: I should also add that this is why really good staff officers are treasured by their generals - ask OG / the Glorious General; he and his troops never went hungry when I was his staffer...

Now I think I know the most dangerous skill of Chirine...
Logistics.
BTW, OG had mentioned elsewhere that a player at Gygax's table had perfect memory and even could correct the Referee on details of the dungeon. Does that happen to be you?

Originally Posted by Old Geezer

A quick note ere I dash off to work...


Indeed so; Chirine was a definite asset to my Legion.

And speaking of skullduggery in supply trains, mopery, dopery, muggery, buggery, and loitering with intent to loaf....

there was the night we were helping General Kutume open some crates labeled

"Bolts, Crossbow, for harming of enemy, 1000 per case, 10 cases"

and a Mru'ur sits up and says "Hello, sailor!"

The question is, did you shoot the thing at the enemy? It's an undead, right?

Originally Posted by Bren

Man I hate it when dipshits and psychopaths give backstabbing a bad name. It just ruins the fun for the rest of us.

Indeed!

Originally Posted by Greentongue

Does who they know / who knows them matter the most when things go badly?
=

Doesn't it work like this in all possible settings?