Thread: Questioning chirine ba kal

Originally Posted by Old Geezer

So... no shit, there we were.

(By the way, I was wrong about getting clan membership after winning that ritual battle. I was not adopted into a clan, though I DID get my first "Gold of Glory.")

It was the siege of Sunraya, which is an ancient Tsauq word meaning "anus of a Chlen beast."

This was a huge siege, and there were a TON of Tsolyani troops there, as well as administration and hangers on.

I was a Molkhar (commander of half a legion) in the Legion of Serqu, Sword of the Empire. And among the administrative and ritual functionaries was the Lady Nlel, a ritual priestess of the Temple of Karakan, Lord of War of Stability, and my patron diety.

She was also the sister of my General.

SO one hot, sultry night I'm out overseeing some of my lads energetically digging a mine, mostly because it was too damned hot and humid to sleep. So Lady Nlel, not being able to sleep either, comes out to visit me.

She is wearing a light gauze kilt, and sandals. Period.

Phil, having taken Hitchcock's point that the imagination is stronger than reality, says only that she is i) very, very lovely and ii) nearly naked.

I was 21 or 22 at the time.

So she reclines on a rock, artlessly striking an incredibly beautiful pose, and starts talking to me.

My character, envisioning his General looking at "One Thousand and One Agonizing Variations on Impalement," is very cautious.

Now, Lady Nlel was NOT an Aridani, one of the independent women of Tsolyanu. She was what Phil called a "good little clan girl." For what it's worth, by the bye, that was Phil's invariable description of a Tsolyani woman who was not Aridani... "good little clan girl."

I don't create the news, I merely report it.

Anyway, she start chatting with Mighty Molkar Kornume... small talk, really. Being paranoid and acutely aware that there is no privacy, I talk about my duty to the Emperor, my duty to my God the Lord Karakan, loyalty to my most exalted General, the nobility of serving the Petal Throne, etc, etc, etc.

To a young woman who is a ritual priestess of the God of War of Stability. The effect, unknown to me, was like quoting Romeo and Juliet to an overly-romantic seventeen year old girl.

The next morning, my Lord General Serqu returned my salute, but then spoke to me in a much more casual manner than usual, smiling and clapping me on the shoulder.

I was married to his sister shortly thereafter.

It was wonderful because it was so totally unexpected. I was merely trying to avoid taking improper advantage of a young lady (and subsequent messy and painful death,) and the fact that I well and truly seduced her was entirely unmeant.

It was a great night; we had an immense amount of fun with this. The next day, we were trying to have a talk in private to sort this out, and wound up doing the 'breakfast in the bastion' scene from "Three/Four Musketeers"; we'd all see the movie version with Michael York, and we all knew the dialog by heart. So, we did the scene - "This wince does not travel well!" - and finally tipped the parapet over onto the people trying to attack us.

It was wonderful - maybe a SNS kind of thing?

Originally Posted by Old Geezer

Also.

I've spoken about the "End Game" of D&D, where you hit Name Level and got a stronghold, and the game was no longer about wandering through dungeons risking awful and messy death for gold.

Tekumel has its "End Game" too, and once I married the mouthwateringly lovely Nlel, I started playing this end game.

Because not only did I marry the sister of my General... I was adopted into his (rather high) Clan, the Golden Sunburst clan.

Being a member of a high ranking clan changes everything. For one thing, money ceased to have any meaning. I would chat with one of my uncles... every male in my clan more than 5 years older than me was my uncle, those about my age were brothers, those more than a few years younger were my nephews...

Anyway, I'd chat with an uncle or two, and they'd either say "That is entirely suitable," or "You have no need of that." And I'd either get what I wanted or not.

I had no desire to play politics, which is why I was strictly an Imperialist. But my clan had uses for a young, heroic, and not too bright young general. My legion would be given orders, and I, as PC, would do the best I could. But behind the scenes, the assignments I was given and the deeds of renown I did worked to the advantage of my clan.

Also, the Tsolyani clan has a very pre-Enlightenment attitude.... I, as an individual, was far less important than my clan. My clan would not waste me needlessly, but if there was advantage that somehow could be had for my clan by sacrificing me, I would be sacrificed.

The clan provided me with everything I needed and almost everything I wanted, but on the other hand, my every action was expected to reflect well on the Clan.

And Chrine, my trusted aide de camp, and I got along famously despite the fact that he followed a god of Change and I followed a god of Stability, because we were, politically speaking, both Imperialists -- "I serve the Petal Throne, no matter who occupies it."

This. OG became the Glorious General, with his own legion, and a very well-connected nobleman. Pretty good for an guy fresh off the boat, eh? Yes, OG was one of the people brought into the campaign that way.

I got a reputation as a very good staff officer, and after a career as Imperial errand-boy and trouble-shooter (usually literally) I got to be a provincial governor and eventually a condottieri general with my own legion. Not bad, for a kid from the Chakas...

Originally Posted by Greentongue

So, for you, a SNS is a special location that provides an unexpected event(s) and not a special opponent/organization?

How common were Ancient Artifacts/Items and how useful?
Are those listed in the EPT rules a small sampling or the "normal things" found?
=

Well, yes, at least with Phil. Most of the 'opposition' was kind of the run-of-the-mill normal stuff; horrible creatures, nasty politicians, evil-doers of all sorts, that kind of thing. It was all kind of all in a days work for us adventurers...

I don't recall any SNS opponents; Phil just didn't play that way. Cool locations, fiendish traps, amazing stuff - that was his style.

Ancient stuff was pretty common in the Underworlds or in the installations of the Ancients. Outside of those two main sources, they were pretty rare. The Undying Wizards usually had a lot of this kind of thing as well, but we tried to avoid them as much as we could; the vast majority of them are nuttier then fruitcakes.

The EPT lists are the common items - there's a list of unique items, too. Great stuff to have, but hard to find and you had to fight the nasties to get them...

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

No, they didn't do any of this; it was all right up front, right across the table, and things would get very nasty very quickly during game sessions. One of them would simply tell you that he was out to get you that night, and you'd wind up fighting him and any allies all night. Very nasty, and very little Tekumel got played. Which is why we split...

That is odd. And stupidly confrontational. I've never seen anyone play quite like that. I see why you split off from that group.

Now in my youth I'd have been sorely tempted to gather a few friends together and see what useful stuff I could take off their corpses. For a several weeks in a row. At which point, first levels probably still have a few kraitars and some armor or weapons I can issue to new followers. Maybe by then it would be lesson learned.

Originally Posted by Bren

That is odd. And stupidly confrontational. I've never seen anyone play quite like that. I see why you split off from that group.

Now in my youth I'd have been sorely tempted to gather a few friends together and see what useful stuff I could take off their corpses. For a several weeks in a row. At which point, first levels probably still have a few kraitars and some armor or weapons I can issue to new followers. Maybe by then it would be lesson learned.

Yep; it was awful, and not any fun at all. We were much happier after we left, and so was Phil. Over the years, they did try to pull some tricks on us, but we simply reused to play along with them.

I'd agree with you, but that kind of thing was what they wanted - the results were not important, the in-fighting was the goal in and of itself. They never did learn the lesson, either; several of them that I've talked to still play that way, and wonder why they don't get players... :O

Originally Posted by Greentongue

I was inspired by "Den" as an example of how to start. While I had success with that back in the day.
Now there are a lot of "expectations" that don't allow that to work.
Your example sounds good and obviously works. Thanks

While I was in China many years ago, there were people that did everything.
For example, someone sat in the elevator and pushed the button for you.
In a high population density setting like Tekumel, is the excess of labor used for every imaginable task?

There was once a discussion of the lack of iron as a health issue at some site.
Was this an issue in game with huge mushroom farms on the "1st level" of the underworld, or was it hand-waved away?

In one of the games I tried I had two main factions. One a cartel of clans specializing in providing smoked sea food to the military. The other cartel specializing in salted sea food.
Is this something that you would expect? Are things more fragmented or
would there be one clan that did everything?
=

You're very welcome! Yes, the original approach was all right, but even Phil gave it up after people got some play experience under their belts. I had the same thing happen to me at Gary Con, and OG (and thank again for playing, Glorious General!) commented that one of the big reasons we had such a good time was that all of the players had had thirty years' of game play experience in RPGs, when back in the day we'd had none...

Re the labor, yes. When Vrisa used to go shopping in the marketplace, I'd be there to watch her back; we'd accumulate a retinue of small to medium children, market urchins of all sorts, who would tag along to 'be helpful. We never, every carried anything ourselves - this ad hoc and then later formal retinue would do all of that for us. (For a suitable - and usually small - tip, of course.) I eventually hired some dozen bearers for a trip from Meku to Fasiltum, and they have stayed with me ever since - I even have my own personal Chlen-cart for my luggage.

This is based entirely on Phil's time in India, by the way. Word would get out that 'Barker Sahib' would be coming to the village to learn their language, and Phil told us that the entire village would turn out at either the bus stop of the train station to meet him. The menfolk, supervised by the village headman and elders, would divide up his luggage to carry, while the womenfolk would fuss over him and find out what he liked to eat. The entire procession would then walk to the village, where Phil would get started with his research and everyone would sit around watching the fun. Phil was very worried, initially, that he would not b able to pay them for their services, but he learned very quickly that they refused to be paid - it was an honor for them to be the hosts of the learned scholar, the Barker Sahib. So, Phil would carefully negotiate with the headman and the elders to see if they would accept a gift as a token of his esteem, which they would, and he found that it cost him all of fifty pice, which was a whopping $0.25. He said that this really brought home to him the relative values of moneys in different level of society - as a poor Fulbright Scholar, he was vasty wealthy in comparison to these rural communities.

This carried over into Tekumel, as you might gather. And we got to see his photos of all this too - very wonderful, and I use this in my games...

The lack of iron is way overblown by quite a few fans. The Ancients mined out the bulk of the ores back in their time, but there's plenty left for dietary needs and such. It's simply very hard to locate and work, with the technology we have available. For a very good discussion of this, see Neil Stephensen's "Quicksilver" books and look for the section on making 'Wootz', or look it up on the web. There's iron and steel to be had, as well as more exotic alloys, but you really have to work at it.

(If I may, I'd like to thank Phil - where ever he is - for the tulwar he gave me for my 25th birthday as a thank-you for my Tekumel work; I found out, decades later, that it's made of wootz. I nearly fainted...)

Oh, yes, you do get cartels and alliances like this! Some clans specialize in some things or trades, and effectively have a monopoly; others are more generally based, and trade with the others for their products - when I needed to rebuild the palace in Hekellu, I contracted with a 'general' clan, which then sub-contracted with the specialists for their unique services.

And I'd be expecting that the two cartels / clans you mention would be in competition to feed my troops, too. Both would vie to get my custom, and I'd also expect that they'd meet 'on the side' to make sure that everyone got a decent price for the fish. "People, all I want is to feed my troops. Bill me, and we'll all be happy. Cheat me, and i'll be very unhappy. Are we all clear on this? Good, good..."

Originally Posted by Bren

That is odd. And stupidly confrontational. I've never seen anyone play quite like that. I see why you split off from that group.

Now in my youth I'd have been sorely tempted to gather a few friends together and see what useful stuff I could take off their corpses. For a several weeks in a row. At which point, first levels probably still have a few kraitars and some armor or weapons I can issue to new followers. Maybe by then it would be lesson learned.

I won't have much time for long posts until the weekend, but...

There is an element of "different strokes for different folks."

A number of the Other Group (tm)(pat pend)(reg u.s. pat off) folks were fanatical Diplomacy players. We all knew Dippy and played it some; but those guys were hard core, of the "weekend long marathon sessions of game after game" and when "what shall we play" came up, their answer was ALWAYS Diplomacy.

I think that when you concentrate enough on one game, you start to play everything in that style.

My 2 Qirgal.

Originally Posted by Old Geezer

A number of the Other Group (tm)(pat pend)(reg u.s. pat off) folks were fanatical Diplomacy players.

My original thought was that they were fond of Diplomacy. Back in the mid 1970s we played that along with other wargames and there was definitely some overlap between people who liked real intraparty conflict (serious theft and real violence as opposed to mere bickering and threat displays) and people who really liked diplomacy. But I was surprised by Chirine's comment that they would openly announce they were going after someone. That just seemed way too unsubtle for a skilled Diplomacy player, which is what confused me.

Originally Posted by Old Geezer

I won't have much time for long posts until the weekend, but...

There is an element of "different strokes for different folks."

A number of the Other Group (tm)(pat pend)(reg u.s. pat off) folks were fanatical Diplomacy players. We all knew Dippy and played it some; but those guys were hard core, of the "weekend long marathon sessions of game after game" and when "what shall we play" came up, their answer was ALWAYS Diplomacy.

I think that when you concentrate enough on one game, you start to play everything in that style.

My 2 Qirgal.

I'd agree with this; I didn't mind then playing that way when they played "diplomacy", it was when they pulled that crap in Phil's campaign.