Thread: Questioning chirine ba kal

Originally Posted by d(sqrt(-1))

These are attired in vestments of silver brocade, and upon the breast of each is a black circle with a central round dot

So, the One Other is Dr. Manhattan? I wondered where he went after he left Earth. Also helps explain why he helped in the fight against Ksarul (and my fascination with the One Other).

Sort of on the subject, I recall on one of the city maps (don't remember which one and don't have my stuff at hand) that there us a Temple of the One Other standing near the normal temples but is listed as Sealed. Why would it be sealed instead of leveled/destroyed?

Found it. Bethorm, map of Katalal, location 98

Originally Posted by Gronan of Simmerya

You know what? I have to unsay the entire message above.

You see, I have been guilty of "anachronistic thinking." I am evaluating Phil's reffing of TWENTY YEARS AGO by the standards of today.

Let me put it in perspective for you. I played in Tekumel from 1974 until 1985. 1985 is ELEVEN YEARS AFTER THE FIRST PUBLICATION OF D&D.

The events with Kathy that Chirine described are "mid 1990s." That's 20 YEARS AGO. And twenty years after D&D first appeared.

Gaming was still in its adolescence, if not infancy. Most of the terms we've been bandying about simply didn't exist as ideas. Shit on toast almighty, this is when "Internet' meant using a dialup modem to access America Onlline.

Phil was reffing by the standard wisdom of the day: the referee is a neutral arbiter, and the players can do what the players want. If that results in player vs player conflict, it is up to the referee to be neutral. If some of the players don't like it, it is for the players to sort out among themselves.

Hell, it's only the last five years or so that I've seen the notion of "Be as explicit as possible about expectations" get any traction. It's twenty years after these events, and people are STILL trying to figure out how it all works.

We are simply being very unfair, and indulging in sloppy thinking.

Gronan, I haven't played or refereed RPGs for 20 years yet.

But I agree, the Referee's job is to be a neutral arbiter in game. That's...not even up for discussion, as far as I'm concerned. In fact, that's why I switched to using the word "Referee".

What is very easy to lose sight of, however, is that the Referee isn't supposed to be always neutral when it comes to out of game actions. Instead, Referee needs to help everyone have fun - while kicking the crap out of their characters for in-game mistakes, which admittedly can be a thin red line to follow...
And this means taking sides when someone is getting (undeservedly) dogpiled - after waiting to see whether the player can deal with it himself or herself. Referee intervention is best used sparingly, after all. (Now, if he or she is deservedly dogpiled, the Referee best stay neutral, or exercise only damage control if things go too far - but that wasn't the case here).

So, in short, MAR Barker did "drop the ball", but it happened in a situation where it's easy to drop the ball because of contradictory requirements.
Was the right way "common wisdom" by then? Can't say, I started playing in 1999 AD, years after those events had taken place. The thing above is what a friend explained to me circa 2000 AD. (He also warned me I am going to fail it occasionally and that I shouldn't kick myself too much over it). Been following that advice since then.

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

We can also see about a Skype connection, too; we';; need to work on that...

Sigh.
It sounds more and more tempting, and I'm a non-smoker, but I doubt I could spare the money this year. I'll take you up on the Skype offer, though, if you don't mind.

Originally Posted by Big Andy

So, the One Other is Dr. Manhattan? I wondered where he went after he left Earth. Also helps explain why he helped in the fight against Ksarul (and my fascination with the One Other).

OK, after much thinking...I suspect that's not a worse idea than any other!

Sort of on the subject, I recall on one of the city maps (don't remember which one and don't have my stuff at hand) that there us a Temple of the One Other standing near the normal temples but is listed as Sealed. Why would it be sealed instead of leveled/destroyed?

Found it. Bethorm, map of Katalal, location 98

You sure you want to see what could crawl out of that temple if we start breaking its walls, noble lord? Of course, you and your regiment would stay nearby and ensure the safety of the workers, I presume? And you'll conduct a ritual to inform the One Other and his demons that it's your decision and your responsibility, so they wouldn't torment the workers?

(Or, as Chirine might say, it's time to call in the adventurers!)

Originally Posted by AsenRG

So, in short, MAR Barker did "drop the ball", but it happened in a situation where it's easy to drop the ball because of contradictory requirements.
Was the right way "common wisdom" by then?

Good question.

The real pivot on this (and Chirine will back me, I believe) is that in the mid 80s after the D&D bubble popped and AGI ground to a halt, Phil pretty much retreated to his basement and stopped paying attention to what "the rest of the gaming world" was doing.

Actually, that's been very common for a LOT of us "first generation"; having re-established contact with Dave Wesley, Mike Carr, Tim Kask, Jim Ward, et al over the last few years at GaryCon, a hell of a lot of us old grognards just retired to our country villas in the mid to late 80s and said 'arseholes to the lot of 'em.' I'm not the only one who pretty much dropped out from 1985 to 2005 or so.

Hell, I go to GaryCon because I can play the games I used to play with the people I used to play with. Yes, I have played some newer stuff, but I just don't like it as much.

Also, all four of the events I played in were historical (counting Brauntstein.) I reffed one D&D session, ran one Tekumel miniatures battle to celebrate Dave Sutherland, and ran a CHAINMAIL battle. I played TRACTICS, Don't Give Up The Ship, Braunstein, and Cavaliers and Roundheads.

I can see why Chirine likes the ECW so much.

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

As I think I said, the single biggest roadblock that Tekumel ever faced was the politics around the table. Phil was never comfortable with dealing with 'external' publishers; he ran afoul of the locals' tendency for feuds with the 'internal' ones.

I was never 100% sure just what it was Phil wanted, and truthfully, I'm starting to think he was never 100% sure either.

Also, and forgive me if I've mentioned this before, but in the early 80s the British Phil Barker did a US and Canada tour. After gaming at the Little Tin Soldier Shop in Minneapolis he went to Winnipeg, where he said to my Canadian gamer/SCA friends "Those people in Minneapolis would rather argue than play the game."

It has always been a splintered and fractious community. Imperium Publishing, anybody?

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

I personally did not like those days; my single biggest regret in my long and very busy life is that I agreed to be hired by Dave Arneson to be the Tekumel person at AGI. If I have known what was going to happen in the coming decades, I would have stayed well away from the commercial side of the house.

I cannot think of an adequate way to express my agreement with this. I regret that I didn't know then what I know about business, about pricing, about gaming, and about the "gaming industry." Adventure Games really WAS born under an ill-favored star; it was the worst possible time to start a game company... just months before the D&D bubble popped.

Originally Posted by AsenRG

You sure you want to see what could crawl out of that temple if we start breaking its walls, noble lord? Of course, you and your regiment would stay nearby and ensure the safety of the workers, I presume? And you'll conduct a ritual to inform the One Other and his demons that it's your decision and your responsibility, so they wouldn't torment the workers?

Ummm, I think the Emperor just ordered my legion to march to Kashi, gotta go...

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

As I'm writing "To Serve The Petal Throne", I am making a very up-front decision to skirt all these issues; I want people to get to know the Phil Barker that we enjoyed playing with, and the wonderful times we had with him. I could certainly write a book about all the things that went wrong and/or badly, but I'll leave that for someone else to pursue.

I heartily support you in this. Much like my memories of the early years of D&D, I see no reason to dwell on the unpleasant. Shakespeare may have said "the evil that men do lives on, the good is oft interred with their bones," but there's no reason we have to participate in that.

Originally Posted by Opaopajr

Please, by mid-1990s WoD was old hat, everyone already threw their grittier than thou PvP into the ring (oh, such a contrast from the zany PvP of Paranoia), and arcade video game etiquette already had well established "don't exploit the known bullshit version glitches to shit on everyone else's fun, or else we reset the cabinet and threaten to knock your teeth in."

And I heard of none of those things until 10 to 15 years later. As I said, many of us Great Old Ones simply disconnected from the "gaming community" for years. But I think that's probably enough digression.

Originally Posted by Gronan of Simmerya

And I heard of none of those things until 10 to 15 years later. As I said, many of us Great Old Ones simply disconnected from the "gaming community" for years. But I think that's probably enough digression.

Hmm... I watched what good practice from referees were even during all those childhood sports I was forcibly shlepped to. Outside collusion, coordionated hazing and abuse, and obscene blowouts were considered bad form. And the referee not only did, but was expected to, go against bad behavior, even if it came from psychotic Little League parents.

That didn't stop vindictive assholes from being themselves. But it often dragged in other authorities before they could get away with being the big shits they are. Non-confrontationalism is as bad as capitulation; when you're the GM (referee) you gotta step up to the plate and make assholes stand back down.