Thread: Questioning chirine ba kal

From AsenRG:Great, except this isn't about them* anymore. I'm talking about the way the NPCs reacted (probably more sensibly than the PCs, too). I suspect such an act might make them outcasts at any kind of good society there is in Tsolyanu.
Just how long can a PC live this way? Not too long, in my experience.

*Much as they'd probably prefer everything to be about them.

Oh, understood. There was no in-game reaction, I have been told by the people who were there that night. Phil, in what I thought was a real black mark against his career as a GM, simply let it stand and ignored it. A lot of people who knew him and had gamed with him were very shocked, for just the reasons you give; we thought better of him then that, and we expected a very negative reaction from the NPCs. Instead, nothing.

[On ships] OK, that surprises me - in a good way. I just picked the most ancient types I know of, and mixed them with some newer but archaic-looking designs.

Phil did the same thing. You're in good company.

May Ctrl+F guide you!

I'm sorry; I'm not very good with computers. What does 'control F' do? I'm also Mac-based, if that's any help.

Well, it's enough for me. We can make it this way again, at least on our tables.

Agreed; there will be better days. These things happen in cycles, if the past thirty years are any indication.

From Shemek hiTankolel:

Wow! Well, how about that?
I didn't mean to open up a can of worms by posting that pic. What a shitty thing to do to a player's character. Especially one into which she had invested so much time.

No problem; you didn;t know. What you are seeing is the endless politics and intrigues around Phil's game table that resulted in successive cliques coming in to try to run things 'their way' over the years. Tekumel's present situation is the result of that.

1. I understand Phil's rationale behind allowing this type of game play, but I have to say I have never allowed this in my games. Very early on I made a conscious decision that certain things were just not going to be played out. Rape, extreme (graphic) sexuality, human sacrifices, demonic/diabolic rituals, torture, and wanton sadism were (and still are) completely out. Even though these things certainly happened in the game world, normally, they were the things the bad guys did. I told my players the reason behind my decision and if they wanted me to DM they would have to respect my wishes. I have stuck to my guns ever since. Well that was 34+ years ago and the campaign is still going, and two of the original six are still showing up. Of the other four, three are physically not able to attend or they would, and the last one fell off the face of the earth a long time ago.
When situations arose that forced the party into more "questionable" behaviour I would, and still do, typically gloss over this part of the game.
The extremely slow killing of a pimp in the Foreign Quarter of a certain city comes to mind... The player said he wanted to send a message, and he did.

I strongly agree with this; it's the way we played, and we took endless amounts of crap for it from the other group; they acted this kind of thing out regularly - see also Gary Fine's "Shared Fantasy" - and it was like kides being naughty behind the barn. Gronan can speak to this as well, but I think we were a more 'mature' and 'adult' group; all we wanted to do was explore the place, ad have some adventures.

2. I have zero patience for the type of behaviour you describe. If any of my players behaved this way they would certainly get the boot! It's supposed to be a gaming group. That means everyone gets to have fun, and participate, and get the loot. If she wants to be the precious snowflake then she should find a DM who will run a solo game for her. Or, maybe, she could try the new interactive Tekumel novel. UFB.

Which is why she got the boot. Likewise, I dropped her now-current GM, the guy who was pushing the age-inappropriate adventure; their group lasted for a couple of sessions, and is now on 'hiatus'. Good riddance, is my feeling.

Originally Posted by Shemek hiTankolel

Get off my Sakbe Road!

Shemek

Which one? I have two. One for the central empire, 14' in the model, and one for the decrepit one out past Hekellu where we fought the Battle of Anch'ke. That one is sized for a 140" game table.

Two Sakbe roads? The man is a lunatic, folks...

Originally Posted by Shemek hiTankolel

Yes sir. You've got that right. This thread is kind of like a nexus point. It has helped to get me "back" to the old Tekumel (at least my version of it).

Shemek

For which, I am delighted! I much prefer those early years; they were a lot more fun.

Originally Posted by Shemek hiTankolel

I wonder how much of this was actually due to envy, or outright jealousy. To me it sounds like they were manipulating the situation created by Phil (regarding player freedom) in order to purge any trace of the "original Thursday Night Group". Judging by the insecurity many of them seem to have, with regards to yourself, I can see this as a motivator (at least subconsciously). Was Lady Vrisa the only original one left from yours and the Glorious General's playing days? Did any of the old Monday Night Group swing over to Thursday? What I find especially disheartening is that Phil allowed this to take place. Just spit-balling here.

Shemek

Most of it was both envy and jealousy; Kathy was replaced as 'house artist' by one of their clique. And yes, I think she was just about the last one out the door.

No. The original MNG group had all quit by the middle 1980s, and had been replaced by a new group; one or two of them did translate over, when both groups collapsed shortly after this incident. The half-dozen people left took the name of our group, for the 'prestige' they told me. (These guys cannot keep their mouths shut.)

Agreed A lot of people were very hurt and disappointed, and Phil's 'social standing dropped like a rock. A lot of very good and talented people dropped away, and the situation never recovered.

Originally Posted by Gronan of Simmerya

Well, I can see why you wouldn't run anything. Perhaps one day you'll be able to simply come and play historical miniatures. (Now I know why you like Pike and Shot era so much!)

But as we've discussed, I have to confess it ain't cheap. Last GaryCon cost me about $500 just for travel, bread, and board, not including the time off from work without pay.

Worth it, but very definitely "a major vacation expense."

Understood. I lost about all my interest in historical miniatures at the hands of the 'real gamers', and haven't been back since the late 1980s. Did play a fun game at Dave Wesely's about three years ago, though.

Agreed about the cost. I do get paid vacations - I'm taking one in four weeks - but they are hard to accrue. Costs are also a major factor; I could pay you to come and game, and still come out ahead. Factor in my health and all the horrible hotel / motel rooms I've had to stay in over the decades, and I just can't see it. If I am not having fun, why am I paying for it?

Originally Posted by Gronan of Simmerya

Phil's most serious failing as a game master was that he let the "reality" of Tekumel override the players' fun. Not in the sense of "this game is too hard," but in the example of Vrisa, for instance, not putting his foot down and saying "No. You do NOT have the right to ruin somebody else's fun."

As I said above, if everybody is OK with it, what X number of consenting adults do at their gaming table is their business.

But NOBODY has the right to ruin anybody else's fun. If somebody says "But that's what the world is like" or "but that's what my character would do," punch them in the nadgers so hard their nose bleeds.

If your character is an asshole it's because you CHOSE to make them an asshole.

I think that this is the best summary of the situation that I've ever seen; you're right on the money, here. And I agree; it was Phil's major failing as a GM.

Originally Posted by Gronan of Simmerya

On a lighter note... the Russian Tea Shop in St. Paul is still open, and their piroshki are as good as ever!

But their hours are VERY limited. I think it's now Noon to 3 on Fridays only.

But... PIROSHKI!

Agreed! We used to gorge on these at AGI, after we moved to 1278 Selby.

Served hot, sliced in half with a dollop of sour cream in each half; you can't go wrong, here...

Originally Posted by Shemek hiTankolel

Yes sir. You've got that right. This thread is kind of like a nexus point. It has helped to get me "back" to the old Tekumel (at least my version of it).

Shemek

The "old" Tekumel is impressively like almost all the good games I've seen. So that can only be a good thing.

Originally Posted by Gronan of Simmerya

Phil's most serious failing as a game master was that he let the "reality" of Tekumel override the players' fun. Not in the sense of "this game is too hard," but in the example of Vrisa, for instance, not putting his foot down and saying "No. You do NOT have the right to ruin somebody else's fun."

As I said above, if everybody is OK with it, what X number of consenting adults do at their gaming table is their business.

But NOBODY has the right to ruin anybody else's fun. If somebody says "But that's what the world is like" or "but that's what my character would do," punch them in the nadgers so hard their nose bleeds.

If your character is an asshole it's because you CHOSE to make them an asshole.

Well, I admit that this might be my biggest failing when Refereeing as well (and I've got other failings, too!)
Though I usually tend to address it, it's just not by "not letting it happen". OOC problems are best solved OOC, after all.

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

From AsenRG:Great, except this isn't about them* anymore. I'm talking about the way the NPCs reacted (probably more sensibly than the PCs, too). I suspect such an act might make them outcasts at any kind of good society there is in Tsolyanu.
Just how long can a PC live this way? Not too long, in my experience.

*Much as they'd probably prefer everything to be about them.

Oh, understood. There was no in-game reaction, I have been told by the people who were there that night. Phil, in what I thought was a real black mark against his career as a GM, simply let it stand and ignored it. A lot of people who knew him and had gamed with him were very shocked, for just the reasons you give; we thought better of him then that, and we expected a very negative reaction from the NPCs. Instead, nothing.

Count me with those that were shocked, please.
I might let it happen, in the same situation, after an OOC chat...but even if both players agreed, there's no way I'd let the consequences slide.

[On ships] OK, that surprises me - in a good way. I just picked the most ancient types I know of, and mixed them with some newer but archaic-looking designs.

Phil did the same thing. You're in good company.

That's definitely good company!
Wasn't Harchar's ship a later model, though?

May Ctrl+F guide you!

I'm sorry; I'm not very good with computers. What does 'control F' do? I'm also Mac-based, if that's any help.

CTRL+F, pressed together, activate your "find" function. You just type, say, a name in the window that opens, and when you press "Enter", it finds all places in the text where this name is located (or takes you to the closest one of them in turn and highlights it in the text-depends on what program you're using). It can also look for a phrase, or for parts of a word. If you suspect having made a typo in a long word, look for part of it.
Basically, just take a sheet of paper, and you can make an index in a couple hours. It's also very useful for referencing PDFs during play. In fact, with a fast machine, it's faster than searching for a page in a physical book.

Never had a Mac myself, but Internet just told me that they have the same command. They don't use "CTRL+F", though.
Instead, it seems the same command in Mac is "command F".

Well, it's enough for me. We can make it this way again, at least on our tables.

Agreed; there will be better days. These things happen in cycles, if the past thirty years are any indication.

My observations confirm this!

So, out of curiosity, how many people on this thread are currently running a Tekumel game or campaign? Lord Chirine, are you running anything you can share with us? How about you Glorious General?
If so, what era, and what location? I'm currently adventuring in the Three States of the Triangle/early Dragon Warriors era. The party is exploring to the far Northeast, in what will be Northern Pechano/Kilalammu in a few thousand years or so. That bastard demon really screwed them over

Shemek.