Thread: Questioning chirine ba kal

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

Taking it from the top, if I may...

Oh, yes, very much so. Warriors with 'prestige' weapons tended to try to lord it over the people with the 'oh-so-common' weapons all the time; usually, it was because they were also rich aristocrats with a high social status. A lot of them got dead - sometimes at my hands - as quite often their social and weapons skills were a lot less then their arrogance and annoyance. I once killed a guy at his own clan house for being rude (to two Imperial Princes, as well as the rest of the guests) and wound up being thanked by the guy's clan for relieving them of a nasty family problem.

Agreed; the assassins' clans have all sorts of useful specialist weapons, and they do use them a lot. It's why I stay on very good terms with them...

The Tsolyani court system is not a great venue for settling disputes; normally the clans and temples and anybody else get together and try to settle disputes as far away from the courts as they can. The courts do hear cases when nobody can agree on anything - we once sat as a Tsolyani court out at Phil's, trying a property dispute case that Phil had been sent from a GM in the UK. The Imperial Government is very 'hands off'; about the only cases that they start are for things like treason and tax evasion, and they tend to move very quickly to deal with the problem. Prisons for 'ordinary criminals' are rare, and usually people like this get executed pretty quickly.

The assassins' clans are resorted to when the courts fail to deliver a judgement; they take on cases for pay, although I had several cases where they took on the cases out of a sense of outrage over some crime that had been committed.

And yes, the clans to 'recruit'; you have to have the right letters of introduction, and know the right people. They do teach some of their less secret martial arts for a fee, but again you have to have an introduction and know the right people - they don't take in folks from off the street. One would not get taught the more recondite skills, but they will give a favored pupil a good grounding in a martial art. Of course, one is then under an obligation to the clan and might be asked to do a 'favor', but that's all to the good - you get more adventures, that way! It's very 'canon', at least in Phil's games.

There were no game mechanics differences between martial arts in EPT, but there were in S&G; I'd have to look in T:EPT and "Gardasiyal" to see if there are...

And I do think you have it nailed down, too...

Amazing! I thought that OG and I would be the only ones to think of the Ismaili - we assumed, back in the day, that they were what Phil was referring to, as he was right up front about not knowing all that much about feudal Japan. (He once gave me some static about using Ral Partha 'ninjas' for Black Y and Ndalu people on the game table - he wanted to know why I didn't have any 'proper' assassins...

From the top it is!

The prestige weapons were once a sign of a professional warrior who can train most of the day. It gets muddy when people with hereditary rights start wearing them for the status without the skill to back the claim up...
I'd expect those people who provoked you were like that?
And kudos to the Professor for the adequate reaction of the NPCs, those morons were endangering the whole clan!

Which is not to say they couldn't pay those assassin clans you keep in good terms with, after thanking you...though the presence and approval of the princes likely worked against that outcome.

I was nodding the whole time reading about the courts, but the ending threw me off. Aren't there forced labour camps, or punishment battalions? Why go straight to the capital punishment?

What kind of crime would make assassin clans working for free? I need to use that in my current campaign!

I was thinking about this process, if someone gets an outsourced job and does well with it...what are the odds of getting initiated in the clan on the basis of talent? Assuming there wouldn't be conflict of loyalties, of course. But then a fresh barbarian PC who just arrived to a port of the Empire wouldn't have a clan, so it's perfect!

Well, obviously both can work, then, and wouldn't matter too much. Guess I don't need to add specific rules, though I still might do that for fun.

Glad to hear I've got that right. Well, it clears this a lot.

Why wouldn't I think of them? They're the assassins, in more than one way! And they sure had enough techniques, armed or unarmed.
I'd guess you used the ninja mini because of availability. Besides, what do you use for an Ismaili assassin, a man dressed like a menial worke or servant,r with a hidden dagger?
Sure they had night operations, but to the best of my knowledge, no specific dress.
(Not that historical ninja actually dressed in black, but that's going offtopic now).

Originally Posted by Bren

Yes, what I was describing includes this and occasionally the reverse which is actually harder to simulate.

Indeed it's harder, which is why I used this option for the example.

Originally Posted by AsenRG

In my inconclusive experience, it's the wargame style that also produces the better stories. The other style doesn't aim at story so much as it's concerned with guarantees to avoid undesirable outcomes at all costs.


Does that mean they weren't playing in a party?

Agreed, in my experience as well.

No, they were not; they occasionally cooperated, but that was usually in the face of utter extinction. They were all individualists, first and foremost, and they gave Phil a pretty bad time - they were right up front about trying to do their best to 'break' the world, which was a play style in vogue in certain quarters back then...

Originally Posted by AsenRG

Also, Chirine, before I address your reply, what is Chirine's class, if any? Fighting in full armour and throwing mighty offensive spells and being good enough to teach others the mace and the dagger...
Is he a special class?

Let me try to explain this; it's going to be a little complicated, so please bear with me...

In EPT I'm a Priest; I'm in the middle of the spectrum, as it were. Warriors don't use magic, and normally can fight better then I can; Magic-users don't normally fight in melees, but can do spells better then I can.

The class system in EPT was a result of Gary Gygax's input on the play-test version of the game. His take on PCs was that having classes was an easy way for beginning players to get their PCs rolled up and into a game, as the rules would set out what the player had to work with for that particular class.

On the other hand, the skills system in EPT was Dave Arneson's input. He felt that players should be able to 'build' their PCs, and then one would be able to simplify the game mechanics by rolling against their skill levels.

Phil, on the other other hand, didn't feel that either approach really fitted in with what he'd had in mind. He liked the idea of an 'occupational' system that was a 'hybrid' of both, where a 'class' could have a range of skills that were normal for that 'job description'.

'Warriors' are pretty straightforward; they are people who fight things, and with various weapons in various types of armor. Generally, they do not use magic; when they do, it's with the technic devices of the Ancients. 'Magic users', on the other hand, are much more complex; in Tekumel, they are all associated with a particular Temple, and all have ranks as priests / priestesses of that temple. Generally, they are adept at various types of sorcery, and are normally unarmored and carry daggers and other such small weapons.

EPT's 'Priest' class, on the other hand, are a hybrid character type that falls in between these two main types. They can wear armor, usually use maces and other such weapons, and have various different functions in the temple.

S&G did all of this differently; there are no 'classes' in those rules it's all skill based.

I am, as far as I know, unique in that I'm the only PC who was a military sorcerer - by definition, I think I'm a 'referee's special'...

And now, we venture into much deeper waters...

If I may, I'd like to diagram the 'priest' types:

All Priests:

Administrator Priests - very often not magic-users
Warrior Priests - temple guards, often not magic-users
Scholar Priests - may often be magic-users (Magic-user, in EPT)
Sorcerer Priests - always magic users (ditto)
Military Priests - extreme specialists; always magic users, and the best ones

I am a ranking Military Priest of one of the war god temples. I have a very different set of skills and abilities then most magic-users, having concentrated on the big battlefield magics. I do have a minor spell corpora, but it's pretty limited. on an individual scale of things, I am a very decent warrior; I come into my own on the battlefield, where I am a pretty powerful asset for a general to use.

As for the mechanics, in EPT Phil usually reached for a set of miniatures rules ("Missum", "Legions of the Petal Throne" or my own "Qadardalikoi") to rum by big spells; otherwise, it was straight EPT.

In the later "Swords and Glory", however, as well as in the new "Bethorm", things are a lot easier as these rules are all skills based - you can create anything, and run it pretty easliy. I had my own spell corpora in "S&G", the 'M series' (m for military) beyond the T for Temple series of spells.

I was, in Phil's campaign, unique. John Tiehen wrote the book on me - literally! - with his "Art of Tactical Sorcery".

Does this help?

Originally Posted by Greentongue

Helps.

In the published EPT rules there is a focus on "Saturday Night Specials".
Was this something that was added as part of the publishing or was it actually how the game was played?

If the play, What was the first SNS you remember?
(Not testing your memory so much as getting a feel for "entry level" SNS.)

What was the best/most memorial SNS?
=

Both, in my experience. With both Greyhawk and Blackmoor, one had a much better feel / grasp for the world setting as it was pretty much based in the currently-known genre of fantasy literature. EPT / Tekumel, on the other hand, was a cultural terra incognita, and so pretty much everything was the equivalent of the D&D SNS. EPT didn't cover half the stuff we found in the first years of the campaign - and as we discovered it, it made it into the published literature, either in the "Dragon", "The Tekumel Journal", or my own 'zines. I still think that EPT is the best entry level Tekumel RPG, myself.

I think - and I'd have to check my notes, that the first SNS for me, was the South Pole military base of the Ancients.

The very best SNS? For me, hands down, the tubeway car system. Nobody knew it existed until somebody stepped on one of the glowing floor tiles and summoned the car to the station...

Originally Posted by AsenRG

The prestige weapons were once a sign of a professional warrior who can train most of the day. It gets muddy when people with hereditary rights start wearing them for the status without the skill to back the claim up...
I'd expect those people who provoked you were like that?
And kudos to the Professor for the adequate reaction of the NPCs, those morons were endangering the whole clan!

Which is not to say they couldn't pay those assassin clans you keep in good terms with, after thanking you...though the presence and approval of the princes likely worked against that outcome.

I was nodding the whole time reading about the courts, but the ending threw me off. Aren't there forced labour camps, or punishment battalions? Why go straight to the capital punishment?

What kind of crime would make assassin clans working for free? I need to use that in my current campaign!

I was thinking about this process, if someone gets an outsourced job and does well with it...what are the odds of getting initiated in the clan on the basis of talent? Assuming there wouldn't be conflict of loyalties, of course. But then a fresh barbarian PC who just arrived to a port of the Empire wouldn't have a clan, so it's perfect!

Well, obviously both can work, then, and wouldn't matter too much. Guess I don't need to add specific rules, though I still might do that for fun.

Glad to hear I've got that right. Well, it clears this a lot.

Why wouldn't I think of them? They're the assassins, in more than one way! And they sure had enough techniques, armed or unarmed.
I'd guess you used the ninja mini because of availability. Besides, what do you use for an Ismaili assassin, a man dressed like a menial worke or servant,r with a hidden dagger?
Sure they had night operations, but to the best of my knowledge, no specific dress.
(Not that historical ninja actually dressed in black, but that's going offtopic now).

Indeed it's harder, which is why I used this option for the example.

1. Yes; noble twits with swords were always a pain to have to deal with. The professionals, on the other hand, were always much more reasonable.

2. Tsolyani society is based on 'favors'; I always stayed on the good side of the assassins by being in a position to help them. As a result, they tended to stay on *my* good side as well, and we helped each other out.

3. The court system is simply not interested in anything like the sort of crimes that we think of; the Imperium is only really interested in major crimes like treason, tax evasion, espionage, and breaches of the Great Concordat. Pretty much by definition, getting convicted of any of these will mean a trip to the stake, as one is thus simply too dangerous / stupid to let live. Valuable political prisoners get Ruby-Eyed and dropped into a block of cement, but that's about the only time the Imperium keeps people in prison.

The vast majority of what we'd consider 'crime' is dealt with at much lower and informal level - the clans and temples. Say you had your money pouch stolen in the market place; if you didn't see it happen, and raised a hue and cry, you'd tell the Market Police and offer a reward. The Market Police - a section of the City Guard - would round up a selection of the Usual Suspects, and give them a hard time until the thief was identified. The thief would then be made to return your pouch, you would hand the Market Police a nice reward and be on your way, and the thief would then get the living daylights beaten out of them back at the police station. The police would also confiscate any valuables that the thief had in their possession, and these would be returned to any known owners for the reward.

Similarly, say you are a merchant in the market place and you see a kid stealing some fruit from you. You'd raise a hue and cry, the locals would chase the kid down and bring them back to you; if you knew the kid's clan, you'd march the little rascal off to his clan house where you'd get an apology and some 'shamptla', money in payment for your trouble. You'd thank the clan elders and be on your way; the kid would then get a thrashing from the clan elders and the parents, and be made to work off the penalty by doing something nasty like cleaning out the stables for a week.

In neither case would the Imperium get involved; it's not their business to do so, so neither is a 'capital crime'.

4. There was a case where a wealthy widow was defrauded of her personal funds by her clan. She had no real recourse in the courts, as she wasn't what we call an 'Aridani' woman - who have a lot more rights under the law. Some of her friends mentioned it to the assasssins' clans, who undertook to obtain satisfaction for her as an example of what we call 'noble action'. She got her property back, and the offending clan had to pay shamtla to her as well. She offered a percentage to the assassins' clans to cover their costs, but they would only accept a single gold coin to show that they were doing it as noble people, not as hirelings.

5. Yes, exactly! PCs 'fresh off the boat' are assumed to be outside the society, and thus very useful as retainers and such to do things like this. And they usually need the money, too!

6. I now have all my assassins - see Dark Fable Miniatures' website!

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

6. I now have all my assassins - see Dark Fable Miniatures' website!

Which figures are the assassins?

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

...were right up front about trying to do their best to 'break' the world, which was a play style in vogue in certain quarters back then...

It was Bill Keyes who said he played in a break the system style for Runequest. He published a supplement called Runemasters that was very helpful in pointing out useful group tactics and ways for characters to magically push the system in RQ2. Players like Bill are really helpful if you want to truly play test your rules.

Originally Posted by Greentongue

For example, would the Market Police be concerned with their victimization by others?

I suspect that would depend on how money anyone thinks they are going to lose if foreigners fresh off the boat get swindled, cheated, or stolen from. Such was often the fate on earth of new immigrants and nobody cared all that much except them and their relatives. I recall one story from my grandfather about getting tricked or swindled after he got of the boat. �migr�s frequently have family or friends of family that help them adapt to the new country. I'd imagine something similar often happens in Tekumel.

Originally Posted by AsenRG

Still, how exactly did it look at the table?

Presumably via secret notes, premade plans revealed only to the GM, or taking the GM aside and whispering. So long as that is the SOP for play it isn't especially jarring when stuff like that is initiated by the player instead of the GM. People who did that back in the day usually used pretty hard IC vs. OOC information boundaries.

Most people I know who played that way also played Diplomacy which is all about secret meetings, temporary alliances of convenience, and frequently the well timed backstab. Doing that in D&D or EPT is just carrying the Diplomacy mode of play into an RPG instead of using the more miniatures battles mode of play where everyone in the party is considered to be on the same side in a miniatures battle.

Originally Posted by AsenRG

I was nodding the whole time reading about the courts, but the ending threw me off. Aren't there forced labour camps, or punishment battalions? Why go straight to the capital punishment?.

Until fairly recently, as in, since the 18th or 19th century, that's been the default for many societies.

Look at 13t century England. Fines and or public ridicule (stocks, pillory) for crimes such as selling short measure. But a thief was simply hanged.

Fines, mutilation, and capital punishment have been the most common judicial penalties since Hammurabi.