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Thread: Questioning chirine ba kal

  1. #2471
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    From Shemek hiTankolel: [I may have to break this into sections, sorry]

    The Tsolyani Army is a well disciplined professional army, and I think that I am correct in presuming that there are probably quite a lot of similarities to the Roman (i.e. Marian) Army. From what we can see from Roman artwork, martial depictions are filled with images of close combat, which would indicate that they conducted their battles “up close and personal”.

    Agreed. For some of Phil's source material, may I suggest "Spartacus", 1960; the final big battle was something Phil often quoted. Also "Alexander", 2004, "Gladiator, 2000, and HBO's "Rome" series; there are some great battle scenes in these.

    The Romans fought in an institutionally prescribed manner, and given the nature of their military, close order drill was effectively implemented. For example, a stance employed that was common to the armatura practiced by soldiers consisted of the legionary standing with his left leg advanced behind the shield, and with the sword held horizontally by his side, ready to strike. Typically, the classic attack involved a body-slam with the shield to knock the opponent off-balance, and then a quick thrust to the belly with the gladius. Although a downward over the shield thrust, or one from beneath the shield was also probably used, as opportunities presented themselves. Even though Vegetus tells us in De Rei Militari, that this form of attack was preferred to slashing or cutting attacks, I should note that the latter attacks were also employed. This was particularly true when Rome was up against well armoured and trained enemies, where cuts and slashes on the legs, arms, or other exposed areas, were used to bring down or distract the foe so that the lethal thrust could be utilized. If we take a look at the daily martial training regime of the legionary which, among other things, consisted of slashes and cuts being practiced on a pell, it becomes evident that this form of attack was certainly employed, and taught.

    Again, agreed. Phil was a very well-read Ancients scholar; he read a lot of the works you mention in the original.

    He did not game the Roman 'imperial' period. He was very familiar with it, but I think he didn't game it mostly because a legion - at that time in gaming - just didn't look all that cool on the table. Phil was very much into 'spectacle', of the De Mille kind.

    What type of tactics do the Tsolyani legions employ for close combat? Do they favour the Roman style of warfare or do they use a more “medieval style”? Are up close thrusting attacks preferred, or are slashing attacks more common? What is the typical Tsolyani sword like; do they use a short sword or a long sword? Are they as well trained to fight in formation, use their swords and work together as a team like the Romans were?

    Well, this gets complicated. Each legion has somewhat different weapon 'load-outs' - you need a copy of the "Armies' books. Some legions have long swords as their primary weapons, and would be considered to fight in a more 'medieval' way then the long-arm legions would fight. In general, I'd say 'yes' to all of the above, depending on the units involved. Long arm units will fight like the Macedonians in "Alexander"; shorter-arm units more like this:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zGjex6qDtM

    I know that many of the legions are pike and spear formations. I would guess that these units probably employ the usual Macedonian or Hellenic “pushing” tactics, vis-à-vis pikes, shields, etc. Are the Tsolyani as tightly organised and disciplined as say Alexander’s troops were? Do these formations work in conjunction with skirmishers, heavy (non pike), medium, and light infantry in order to turn an enemy’s flanks?

    Agreed. Phil was an expert in the wars of the Diodachi, and loved to game them. His view of the way that the Tekumelyani fought is very much in line with that. The Legions are much more disciplined; most of them have been around for a very long time, and have a lot of 'regimental' tradition and spirit.

    And yes, there are a lot of formations - Phil did an article on this for either 'The Dragon' or 'The Strategic Review'. All sorts of troop types are used, and in various unit and group formations.

    I guess that the best way to summarize this is that what we do is phalanx warfare, but with no cavalry.

    Does any of this help? A lot of your questions would be immediately answered if you had access to the references like my miniatures rules and the "Armies" series...

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    Uncle, for a change that's not a question. But Chlen hide reminds of bronze, and I suspect some players might come to underestimate non-metalic weapons.
    So I'll just letave this link here and let people come up with their own unrusting bronze and copper swords, sharp obsidian mace-picks and shearing Chlen hide axes.
    "Let me tell you something you already know. The world ain't all sunshine and rainbows. It's a very mean and nasty place, and I don't care how tough you are, it will beat you to your knees and keep you there permanently if you let it. You, me, or nobody is gonna hit as hard as life. But it ain't about how hard you hit. It's about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward; how much you can take and keep moving forward." - Rocky

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    Quote Originally Posted by AsenRG View Post
    So I'll just letave this link
    Very nice.
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  4. #2474
    What about my Member? Shemek hiTankolel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chirine ba kal View Post
    From Shemek hiTankolel: [I may have to break this into sections, sorry]


    1. Agreed. For some of Phil's source material, may I suggest "Spartacus", 1960; the final big battle was something Phil often quoted. Also "Alexander", 2004, "Gladiator, 2000, and HBO's "Rome" series; there are some great battle scenes in these.

    2. He did not game the Roman 'imperial' period. He was very familiar with it, but I think he didn't game it mostly because a legion - at that time in gaming - just didn't look all that cool on the table. Phil was very much into 'spectacle', of the De Mille kind.

    3. Well, this gets complicated. Each legion has somewhat different weapon 'load-outs' - you need a copy of the "Armies' books.

    Agreed. Phil was an expert in the wars of the Diodachi, and loved to game them. His view of the way that the Tekumelyani fought is very much in line with that. The Legions are much more disciplined;

    4. And yes, there are a lot of formations - Phil did an article on this for either 'The Dragon' or 'The Strategic Review'. All sorts of troop types are used, and in various unit and group formations.


    5. Does any of this help? A lot of your questions would be immediately answered if you had access to the references like my miniatures rules and the "Armies" series...
    Thank you for your reply. What you said is kind of what I thought when I first read the sourcebooks and background in EPT all those years ago. It would seem that this has become a recurring theme for me in this thread. You have really given me, and if I can take the liberty - us, a great insight into how Phil ran things. It really brings his games and novels to life when we find out what his motivation behind a certain action, or the creation of a thing was.

    1. Have seen all of these films and shows many times, except for Alexander. The film was just too much for me to sit through. I'll have to give it another go sometime soon. HBO's Rome was the best series never finished, IMO. That first battle scene in episode 1 was bang on for accuracy, right down to the whistle being employed by Centurion Lucius Vorenus. Although liberties were taken with historical characters and events, I really wish they had gone further on in the series.

    2. From what I've learnt about Phil on this thread that does not surprise me at all. Although I think he probably liked HBO's Rome, especially Season 2...

    3/5. I have Book iv - Salarvya, and although the load out is provided for each Nchesh, as I'm sure is the case for each Tsolyani Niqomi, or Yan Koryani Gurek, the actual specifics of how a unit or formation fights are not. The notes for each unit are quite sparse. I also don't recall the Sourcebook having this information either, but I could be wrong. Perhaps the rule sets do?
    I can certainly see the Baron Ald as being one of the Diadochi. Not much of a stretch there.

    4. I have this article printed out, and I really like it. In fact it is this article which gotten me interested in the minutiae of Tekumelyani military matters.

    Shemek
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    Quote Originally Posted by AsenRG View Post
    Uncle, for a change that's not a question. But Chlen hide reminds of bronze, and I suspect some players might come to underestimate non-metalic weapons.
    So I'll just letave this link here and let people come up with their own unrusting bronze and copper swords, sharp obsidian mace-picks and shearing Chlen hide axes.
    Very interesting article. I will have to incorporate a sword like this into my current campaign. Now if this sword was made of Chlen hide.... :idunno:

    Shemek
    Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect.
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  6. #2476
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    Quote Originally Posted by AsenRG View Post
    Uncle, for a change that's not a question. But Chlen hide reminds of bronze, and I suspect some players might come to underestimate non-metalic weapons.
    So I'll just letave this link here and let people come up with their own unrusting bronze and copper swords, sharp obsidian mace-picks and shearing Chlen hide axes.
    Agreed; wonderful link, too!

    Phil was pretty clear that chlen-hide was as tough as bronze, but as light as Delrin - an engineering plastic. My dad, a production engineer, gave me a pile of samples of various high-end engineering plastics to show Phil as samples of what Chlen-hide might weigh.

    One of the very coolest things I've ever done was to hold a Bronze Age bronze sword, one of the many wonderful items in the Oakshott Collection here in the Twin Cities. Very light, superbly balanced, and simply deadly in the hand.

  7. #2477
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    From Shemek hiTankolel:Thank you for your reply. What you said is kind of what I thought when I first read the sourcebooks and background in EPT all those years ago. It would seem that this has become a recurring theme for me in this thread. You have really given me, and if I can take the liberty - us, a great insight into how Phil ran things. It really brings his games and novels to life when we find out what his motivation behind a certain action, or the creation of a thing was.

    You're very welcome! What's happening here in this thread is that you - and everyone else, of course - are drilling down through time to when we did all these things. We all shared a common set of information; we'd all see the same films, come out of the same fandoms, and had a lot in common in terms of the way we did things. Phil was very upfront in his early works about how he felt that Tekumel worked; the further back one can go, the more one learns.

    1. Have seen all of these films and shows many times, except for Alexander. The film was just too much for me to sit through. I'll have to give it another go sometime soon. HBO's Rome was the best series never finished, IMO. That first battle scene in episode 1 was bang on for accuracy, right down to the whistle being employed by Centurion Lucius Vorenus. Although liberties were taken with historical characters and events, I really wish they had gone further on in the series.

    Agreed. I wound up fast-forwarding through "Alexander" to get to the good bits; there are some great individual scenes, but they feel like they're embedded in a lot of 'over-burden'.

    "Rome" is good, because you get a lot of 'player-character' flavor; back in the day, Phil stuck us with a wagon full of gold - nine tons of coins, and laughed his head off as we tried to deal with it. I'll bet he laughed all over again when he saw the "Rome" episode...

    2. From what I've learnt about Phil on this thread that does not surprise me at all. Although I think he probably liked HBO's Rome, especially Season 2...

    He loved it; he owned the boxed set of all the episodes. He just wasn't into them on the table. Once the Roman Empire fell, he was into medievals in a very big way.

    3/5. I have Book iv - Salarvya, and although the load out is provided for each Nchesh, as I'm sure is the case for each Tsolyani Niqomi, or Yan Koryani Gurek, the actual specifics of how a unit or formation fights are not. The notes for each unit are quite sparse. I also don't recall the Sourcebook having this information either, but I could be wrong. Perhaps the rule sets do?
    I can certainly see the Baron Ald as being one of the Diadochi. Not much of a stretch there.


    Yep; the information is there, but scattered around in the various texts. You get the weapons lists in "Armies", the formations in both "Legions" and my rules, and some notes on fighting styles in the Sourcebook. The problem here is that we knew all this stuff - Phil had Gronan and some of the other people in the group suit up and fight a melee in the back yard, for example.

    Agreed!

    4. I have this article printed out, and I really like it. In fact it is this article which gotten me interested in the minutiae of Tekumelyani military matters.

    I'm glad to hear that you have it - it's what I consider one of the very basic texts for military action in the Five Empires.

  8. #2478
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shemek hiTankolel View Post
    Very interesting article. I will have to incorporate a sword like this into my current campaign. Now if this sword was made of Chlen hide.... :idunno:

    Shemek
    Try it - and let us know what happens!

  9. #2479
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    Default Inserting a happy note...

    If I may be permitted a personal observation, my blood work came back from my visit to the doctor's office. Gout can be a symptom of lead poisoning, and so I had it tested; I am happy to report that even after forty years of doing miniatures, I have no detectable amounts of lead in my system. My gout is plain old gout, nothing special...

  10. #2480
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    Quote Originally Posted by chirine ba kal View Post
    If I may be permitted a personal observation, my blood work came back from my visit to the doctor's office. Gout can be a symptom of lead poisoning, and so I had it tested; I am happy to report that even after forty years of doing miniatures, I have no detectable amounts of lead in my system. My gout is plain old gout, nothing special...
    That's happy news, and I'm glad you always taking the appropriate precautions has worked out.
    "Let me tell you something you already know. The world ain't all sunshine and rainbows. It's a very mean and nasty place, and I don't care how tough you are, it will beat you to your knees and keep you there permanently if you let it. You, me, or nobody is gonna hit as hard as life. But it ain't about how hard you hit. It's about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward; how much you can take and keep moving forward." - Rocky

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