Thread: Questioning chirine ba kal

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

Court martial? We would have been lucky to get graves.

We would have been lucky to have pieces left big enough to put into graves.

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

Yes. Phil was very annoyed that Gronan had pulled it off in the face of overwhelming odds - he was also miffed that Gronan was also not spending his clan's money like the other group was.

The General wasn't on that little trip to Mihallu; the rest of us were. Dave would get the most off-the-wall ideas...

Originally Posted by Big Andy

Why would this bother him?

Also, did the other group ever thank you for saving their bacon?

Originally Posted by AsenRG

This way, he wasn't racking up a list of favours to return.

Well, part of it was that Phil liked gauds, trinkets, luxuries, and sybaritic living, especially in his fiction (Dying Earth and all that) and Chirine and I... pretty much ALL the PCs in our group, in fact... were of the mindset of "Pretty good is good enough." To use a modern analogy, if somebody offered us a week at the Savoy with carte blanche in the dining room (bang chomp whimper!) we'd take it, but we'd be just as happy with Holiday Inn... the beds are horizontal, the sheets are clean, and nobody's trying to kill us in rude ways in our sleep.

Also, honestly, I don't think Phil ever really did understand that Korunme really did just want to be a good loyal soldier, follow orders, serve the Emperor loyally, and fight bravely. I had no aspirations to political office, no desire to line my own nest, no hidden agenda. Again, remember Phil's love for Dying Earth and Jack Vance in general. And he never really got that if an officer shares the hardships and hazards of his men, they will follow him to Hell.

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

Kutume was both cheap and greedy. Korunme was thrifty, both in money and lives.

And was damn grateful, too....

Yep. Korunme realized that you couldn't win a battle without risking troops, and if you risked your troops you would lose some.

But way back in 1972 I got involved in a WW2 campaign, my very first. And I was told 'if you lose all your tanks in the first battle, you won't have any for the second." I never forgot that very trenchant little bit of advice. We were in the middle of the bloody Milumanayani desert; there were no reinforcements or replacements, there was only us.

Chirine,

Given the fact that both you and the Glorious General spent a lot of time in military situations I have some technical questions concerning the Legions of Tsolyanu. With Phil’s keen understanding of classical warfare and his attention to details I figured you would have gamed out some these things over the years. The post is kind of kind of long, but enquiring minds want to know. So, here goes.
The Tsolyani Army is a well disciplined professional army, and I think that I am correct in presuming that there are probably quite a lot of similarities to the Roman (i.e. Marian) Army. From what we can see from Roman artwork, martial depictions are filled with images of close combat, which would indicate that they conducted their battles “up close and personal”.
The Romans fought in an institutionally prescribed manner, and given the nature of their military, close order drill was effectively implemented. For example, a stance employed that was common to the armatura practiced by soldiers consisted of the legionary standing with his left leg advanced behind the shield, and with the sword held horizontally by his side, ready to strike. Typically, the classic attack involved a body-slam with the shield to knock the opponent off-balance, and then a quick thrust to the belly with the gladius. Although a downward over the shield thrust, or one from beneath the shield was also probably used, as opportunities presented themselves. Even though Vegetus tells us in De Rei Militari, that this form of attack was preferred to slashing or cutting attacks, I should note that the latter attacks were also employed. This was particularly true when Rome was up against well armoured and trained enemies, where cuts and slashes on the legs, arms, or other exposed areas, were used to bring down or distract the foe so that the lethal thrust could be utilized. If we take a look at the daily martial training regime of the legionary which, among other things, consisted of slashes and cuts being practiced on a pell, it becomes evident that this form of attack was certainly employed, and taught.
What type of tactics do the Tsolyani legions employ for close combat? Do they favour the Roman style of warfare or do they use a more “medieval style”? Are up close thrusting attacks preferred, or are slashing attacks more common? What is the typical Tsolyani sword like; do they use a short sword or a long sword? Are they as well trained to fight in formation, use their swords and work together as a team like the Romans were?
I know that many of the legions are pike and spear formations. I would guess that these units probably employ the usual Macedonian or Hellenic “pushing” tactics, vis-à-vis pikes, shields, etc. Are the Tsolyani as tightly organised and disciplined as say Alexander’s troops were? Do these formations work in conjunction with skirmishers, heavy (non pike), medium, and light infantry in order to turn an enemy’s flanks?

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

It was very much the latter.

The back story on all this is that the other group had managed to get their invasion on the NE Frontier going, and Phil had managed to out-think them and get behind them with a pretty huge force. They were good tactically, but tended to lose sight of the big picture. Phil had them dead to rights; we came swanning up the road and blew his ambush, and he had the perfect opportunity to exterminate all of his players in both groups in one fell swoop. It would have ended the invasion, which would have ended the war, and we'd all have to roll up new PCs. In effect, a double TPK.

The only survivor would have been Kathy / Vrisa, who still had to survive the politics in Yan Kor.

The stakes were absurdly high, the odds against us absurdly high, and Gronan let Phil have it right between the eyes. The Saintly Old Professor was grouchy for weeks afterwards...

I'm starting to remember a bit more of this, though I still will accept correction if I'm wrong.

Now, the rest of you need to realize that a major battle group like the enemy had would have organized military magic using contingents, and flying Hlaka scouts, and light infantry, et al.

We were a single legion on the march with no support. We had no light troops so our only scouts were our own mediums, and we had only a few PC magic users. We were simply in "transport mode," and frankly I was a tiny bit piqued when in Flamesong Phil refered to me "getting caught with my thumb up my arse." I think we did pretty damn well.

I vaguely remember getting hemmed in at one point. Sun Tzu always said never put your enemy on "death ground" where they cannot retreat, and we showed why; with "do or die" being the only choice, we did.

Also, though Phil was a pretty good tactician and quite knowledgeable about the ancient and medieval periods, much after the death of Richard III he lost all interest. I, however, had been thoroughly schooled in Blitzkrieg by several people including Chirine... sometimes as a teammate, sometimes an observer, and sometimes recipient of his gentle attentions ( ). So Blitzkrieg concepts were second nature to me. I think I recall that I decided to punch through the enemy on a small front and follow up closely in classic armored attack style, hoping to get through the gap before the "shaft" of the "spear" was cut off.

I think, anyway. Part of the reason I'm not sure is that it was 30 plus years ago, but also to paraphrase Tolstoy, "Successful battles are all alike, but each failed battle fails in its own horrific and usually painful way."

Originally Posted by Shemek hiTankolel

Chirine,

Given the fact that both you and the Glorious General spent a lot of time in military situations I have some technical questions concerning the Legions of Tsolyanu. With Phil’s keen understanding of classical warfare and his attention to details I figured you would have gamed out some these things over the years. The post is kind of kind of long, but enquiring minds want to know. So, here goes.
The Tsolyani Army is a well disciplined professional army, and I think that I am correct in presuming that there are probably quite a lot of similarities to the Roman (i.e. Marian) Army. From what we can see from Roman artwork, martial depictions are filled with images of close combat, which would indicate that they conducted their battles “up close and personal”.
The Romans fought in an institutionally prescribed manner, and given the nature of their military, close order drill was effectively implemented. For example, a stance employed that was common to the armatura practiced by soldiers consisted of the legionary standing with his left leg advanced behind the shield, and with the sword held horizontally by his side, ready to strike. Typically, the classic attack involved a body-slam with the shield to knock the opponent off-balance, and then a quick thrust to the belly with the gladius. Although a downward over the shield thrust, or one from beneath the shield was also probably used, as opportunities presented themselves. Even though Vegetus tells us in De Rei Militari, that this form of attack was preferred to slashing or cutting attacks, I should note that the latter attacks were also employed. This was particularly true when Rome was up against well armoured and trained enemies, where cuts and slashes on the legs, arms, or other exposed areas, were used to bring down or distract the foe so that the lethal thrust could be utilized. If we take a look at the daily martial training regime of the legionary which, among other things, consisted of slashes and cuts being practiced on a pell, it becomes evident that this form of attack was certainly employed, and taught.
What type of tactics do the Tsolyani legions employ for close combat? Do they favour the Roman style of warfare or do they use a more “medieval style”? Are up close thrusting attacks preferred, or are slashing attacks more common? What is the typical Tsolyani sword like; do they use a short sword or a long sword? Are they as well trained to fight in formation, use their swords and work together as a team like the Romans were?
I know that many of the legions are pike and spear formations. I would guess that these units probably employ the usual Macedonian or Hellenic “pushing” tactics, vis-à-vis pikes, shields, etc. Are the Tsolyani as tightly organised and disciplined as say Alexander’s troops were? Do these formations work in conjunction with skirmishers, heavy (non pike), medium, and light infantry in order to turn an enemy’s flanks?

Chirine will be able to answer this more fully. Tekumelyani legions are highly disciplined. Their weapons tend to be on the short-ish side and often cut and thrust. I conjecture that since so many of the best legions used pikes that Phil liked the Greek and Macedonian era better than the Roman.

When I saw Richard Lester's "Three Musketeers" I was taken with Richard Chamberlain's Aramis fighting Florentine, so I eventually prevailed on Phil to let Korunme study "Arruche," the Tsolyani two-weapon style. It was good for duels or individual adventuring, but considered a rather effite "fancy boy" way of fighting for most soldiers. To quote Cerebus the Aardvark, "give me a half dozen Panrovian dueling masters and I could conquer this backwater of a country." But when my cohort, then wing, then legion, got down to serous slaughter I was capable and willing to pick up our unit's shield and weapon and get down and dirty with the best of them.

Originally Posted by Gronan of Simmerya

Chirine will be able to answer this more fully. Tekumelyani legions are highly disciplined. Their weapons tend to be on the short-ish side and often cut and thrust. I conjecture that since so many of the best legions used pikes that Phil liked the Greek and Macedonian era better than the Roman.

You mean their backup weapons are on the short side, right? Pikes being notably not-short as weapons go.

Originally Posted by Big Andy

Why would this bother him?

Also, did the other group ever thank you for saving their bacon?

Because getting PCs to spend money on their legions was a quick and easy way to get them poor. Which meant that they'd have to go on adventures, to get more money.

Of course not. See also Gary Fine's book, "Shared Fantasy" for the way they played. These are the folks who brought you things like the slave revolt in Ferenara...

Originally Posted by AsenRG

This way, he wasn't racking up a list of favours to return.

And that, too!

Originally Posted by Shemek hiTankolel

I looked back in the book, and you're right. I think I was getting confused by all of those "K's". Maybe Chirine should include a cast of characters listing for his book.
BTW, speaking of K characters, wasn't Karin Missum a PC as well? Judging how he's described in the novels, the player must have really enjoyed playing him over the top in Phil's games.

Shemek

Karuim Missum was played by 'Fighting Bob' Brynaldsen, whose the owner of the biggest FLGS here in the Twin Cities. Bob went through USMC basic training twice; he liked it so much the first time that when he had the opportunity he did it again. Bob was, and still is, an elemental force of nature.