Thread: Questioning chirine ba kal

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

Speaking of standards and 'battle flags'...

1. Each of the Five Empires has a particular style of standard, usually based on ancient examples. The Tsolyani, for example, use poles with plumes and devices; the Yan Kor sculpted clan emblems and totems; the Salarvyani cloth banners that hang from cross-pieces, like the Italian gonfalon; The Mu'uglavyani long trailing cloth banners like medieval standards; the Livyani - as might be expected - all sorts of mysterious glyphs and emblems of the Shadow Gods.

2. The small states tend to copy their nearest neighbor, which makes sense. Even in Tsolyanu, the location of the legion's base will affect their choices; 'western' legions tend to look a lot more Mu'uglavyani, while 'eastern' ones a lot more Salarvyani.

3. My own legion has banners, as their primary standard - showing the device of the Ancient Nluss, the Dragon and the Flame - and also staffs with devices for the lower echelons of command.


4. If I had been Napoleon, I would have sued for copyright violations, plagarism, or IP abuse. The gent's system was the same - and I do mean the same! - as what the French Army under the First Empire used. I think his idea was that since the French and Tsolyani armies wear blue, then they should have the same flags. Same for the Mu'uglavyani - they wear red, so they got period British standards, two to a unit, and to the exact same pattern.

5. Phil wrote the guy back, explaining in very kind a polite terms that things on Tekumel were not done that way. He got very huffy, and told us that he was going to boycott the miniatures line. We got stuff like this in all the time, which is one of the big reasons why I am delighted not to be on the 'commercial' side of the house...

Oh, sigh...

1. That's very interesting. I knew about the Tsolyani banners, but not about the other nations. You wouldn't have any examples that you could post?

2. They borrow so much from their neighbours that I'm not surprised that there is a similarity in heraldic conventions, or a shared vexillological corpus (must be channelling Phil tonight)

3. Any chance of posting this or directing us where can see it? Sounds really interesting.

4. Certainement! What else would one use for Tsolyani and Mu'ugalavyani standards? :idunno:


5. I don't doubt it. From what you have posted here I think that it was a big pain in the butt that you are glad to be rid of.

Shemek

Originally Posted by Hrugga

The Nyagga can interbreed with humans(I think I read that somewhere)? If that is the case, what the heck would be the outcome...???

Maybe it's a good thing that Humanspace technolgy is scarce. Nygga in suits that allow them to move over land. Scary thought. Kinda like War of the Worlds.

H:0)

No kidding Mighty Hrugga of the Epics. The Ssu and Shunned Ones are bad enough.

Shemek

Originally Posted by Shemek hiTankolel

Chirine,

Thank you for the responses Incredibly helpful as usual!
I've got this bee in my bonnet recently to do some large scale (strategic level) war gaming on Tekumel. I'm developing and adjusting an old rule set so that I can have my group do some "generalship" in the future. Although the rules are for some type of generic fantasy hex and chit war game they really lend themselves to Tekumel IMO. I just got my copy of Tony Bath's book and I am feverishly working on a campaign. Doing the orbat for the Tsolyani legions was a huge undertaking. I was able to find an excel spreadsheet somewhere on line that lists every legion, its equipment, number of cohorts, commander, etc.. and this made it somewhat easier. I've started on the Salarvayani and Pechani Nchesh's, but once that's done I've got to find the Yan Koryani (and allies), Mu'ugalavyani, and Livyani orbats. This may pose a problem

1. I think the lightning bringers are one of those "cool" weapons. Look great on the table top but don't do too much. As is often the case, just like in life, they're good from afar, but far from good.

2. That makes sense, and is kind of how I pictured it for some reason. Like in the Pink Floyd song:" 'Forward' he cried from, the rear,
And the front rank died."

3. Let's hope a Ssu Shaka doesn't arise:jaw-dropping:

Shemek

You're welcome!

I'm surprised that you are having to recreate the "Armies" series, which has all the information you are looking for - legions, hex number locations, arms and armor, etc. Last I heard, the Tekumel Foundation had republishing these as a high priority project; they were supposed to have been re-done and out several years ago. The editions I did are going for silly prices in the collectibles market; I've often thought of selling off my paper copies and working from my digital versions.

Well, I like the lightning-bringers myself; they're a great excuse for some cool models - I have three different ones in the arsenal - and a lot of fun on the game table. They usually fail, and at the worse possible time.

Yep; the Zulus were noted for having very good command and control, which is one of the many reasons that they are fun to game.

Agreed, which is why we try really, really hard to kill any of them thet even look competent.

Strategic campaigns are what we used to do all the time, as a way to generate battles on the table. I do miss that style of gaming; people don;t seem to have time for it, any more...

Originally Posted by Hrugga

The Nyagga can interbreed with humans(I think I read that somewhere)? If that is the case, what the heck would be the outcome...???

Maybe it's a good thing that Humanspace technolgy is scarce. Nygga in suits that allow them to move over land. Scary thought. Kinda like War of the Worlds.

H:0)

Yes, they can; it's in the Sourcebook. The outcome are the Pallid Ones who live on the shores of Lake Parunal; these are the ones who do not go back to the underwater civilization, and live on land. They have vestigial gills.

They are also the ones who provide the Gurek of Ngakku - I first modeled these for Phil in 1977, or so. The Ral Partha 'Sea Elf Advancing With Pike" is a dead ringer for the illustration that Craig did. They are now back in production by Ral Partha, too, so you can have the same figures that we did, back in the day...

And they may have powered exoskeletons in their treasure vaults, for all we know; nobody ever did much exploring, up that way...

Originally Posted by Shemek hiTankolel

Seemed pretty even-keeled to me. I liked the story about the Shipali family.

Shemek

Yep; that's Dr. William Shipley, of USC Berkeley, who was one of Phil's original players back in the Fifties. (I have a list of all of them, by the way.) Phil did both the Shipali lang grand document and an exploration permit for him. After Phil passed away, we contacted his family and his son Michael still has the original document, and we got copies.

Originally Posted by Shemek hiTankolel

1. That's very interesting. I knew about the Tsolyani banners, but not about the other nations. You wouldn't have any examples that you could post?

2. They borrow so much from their neighbours that I'm not surprised that there is a similarity in heraldic conventions, or a shared vexillological corpus (must be channelling Phil tonight)

3. Any chance of posting this or directing us where can see it? Sounds really interesting.

4. Certainement! What else would one use for Tsolyani and Mu'ugalavyani standards? :idunno:


5. I don't doubt it. From what you have posted here I think that it was a big pain in the butt that you are glad to be rid of.

Shemek

1.I do, and I'll look for the files when I have a chance. See #3, though.

2. Exactly. The US Army did this, as well; see also the uniforms that the boys wore before and after the Franco-Prussian War in 1870.

3. You should be asking the Tekumel Foundation for this kind of thing, really. They are very insistent that any and all such requests for information must go through them, and I am trying to respect their wishes; I was told after this year's Gary Con that they are very hurt - their words - that people talk to me and not to them about things like this.

4. Agreed! And with Harchar supplying the 'magic Elven bang sticks' that we got in Blackmoor, we could do some really serious gaming and not this fantasy crap!!!

5. It was a screaming pain in the ass. There was never any money, so I had to fund pretty much everything out of my back pocket. A lot of people owe their present prestige and position to the hard work that I - and Gronan - put in over the years, and they ruined my relationship with Phil trying to get control of what we'd built. Now, they're in the hot seat, and not having a very good time from what I'm told. Tough. Welcome to the real world, people.

And let's drop that thought, if we may; it only gets me blood pressure up...

Originally Posted by Shemek hiTankolel

No kidding Mighty Hrugga of the Epics. The Ssu and Shunned Ones are bad enough.

Shemek

Oh, I'd agree with that. In bunches...

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

Yes, and Yes. They were perfectly understandable, and since we all pretty much had "The Secret Tongue" - it was just too obvious not to pick it - we never had any problems talking to them.

I think poor Phil was kind of chagrined for a while that the Secret Tongue became the "Lingua Franca" of Tekumel, but he got over it.

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

We got stuff like this in all the time, which is one of the big reasons why I am delighted not to be on the 'commercial' side of the house...

Oh, sigh...

* hands Chirine the industrial-sized drum of Excedrin *

Originally Posted by Gronan of Simmerya

I think poor Phil was kind of chagrined for a while that the Secret Tongue became the "Lingua Franca" of Tekumel, but he got over it.

* hands Chirine the industrial-sized drum of Excedrin *

Agreed; I think his only regret with the TSR edition of EPT was including The Secret Tongue as an 'open source' item in the languages list. So, Phil being Phil, he then came up with The Even More Secret Tongue of the Temple of Ksarul, which all the Ksarul-worshipping players then learned. This then led to The Really Secret Tongue of the Temple of Ksaurl, and one had to be very high-level to learn it. Nobody ever got that high, so the problem was solved.

Thank you; it's one of the very few pain-killers I can take these days, due to interactions with my other medications. I'm particularly cranky this evening, due to a three-day-long flare-up of the gout I came down with after Gary Con in 2015 - I got very badly dehydrated, and gout was the result. I couldn't walk at all on Thursday, and didn't get much of any sleep overnight Friday to Saturday. It hurts, and I'm tired of hurting.

Nope, I just get cranky at what has happened to Tekumel, especially since Phil passed away. A lot of good will and opportunity has been squandered, and I'm sorry to see it happen this way.

I'll be happy to keep talking about Tekumel and Phil, and the times we had with him, but I am extremely glad not to have anything to do with the commercial side of the house.

Onward!