Thread: Questioning chirine ba kal

Chirine,

Going back to an earlier point I raised. You said that Ssu typically weren't organized in the same way that troops in the Five Empires would be, but that there could be hundreds, or even thousands of them deployed on the field. Just out of curiosity, how would you rate the Ssu? When they formed up and took on a cohort of Tsolyanu's best, assuming equal numbers on both sides, who would you think would be the stronger unit (at least on paper)?
Do Ssu employ more "mundane" artillery like onagers, ballista, etc, or do they exclusively use devices of the ancients, like lightning bringers?
Battle magic is not uncommon in the Five Empires, and I presume all nations essentially employ the same types of spells with, perhaps, some regional differences being present. What about the Ssu? I know that Phil has described them as being fearsome spell casters, but is their battle magic, as far as you know, the same as human battle magic?
How obviously noticeable and effective are Ssu leaders/commanders. Do they tramp on to the battlefield with some type of retinue, or under Standards/Battle Flags? Do they lead from the front, or do they look just like one of the rank and file. In fact do they even have someone (thing?) that we would be able to even recognize as a commander?


Shemek.

Recently came across this. Kind of interesting, especially if linguistics is your thing. Some nice anecdotes as well. I thought it was good background noise while I was painting miniatures. Here's the link:

http://conlangery.com/2015/12/01/con...-115-tsolyani/

Shemek

Originally Posted by Hrugga

Uncle,
So the Qol speak "The Not-So-Secret Language of Ksarul"? Can they easily communicate with humans and the other races of Tekumel? Where there any limit to how advanced the Qol could be in the Professor's game? Where there any other creatures that could be advanced as well?

Also, If you please any interesting stories involving Hra...?

If we discussed this already forgive. The thread is getting long...

Yes, and Yes. They were perfectly understandable, and since we all pretty much had "The Secret Tongue" - it was just too obvious not to pick it - we never had any problems talking to them.

Not that we saw. In all our encounters with them, they were just as good, just as fast, and just as smart as we were. They were always a real challenge, and we were very careful around them.

Any of the sapient life forms could be just as good as humans. We just breed faster then they do, which is why we more or less control the planet. A lot of the things we met were not sapient, and we didn't expect them to be very advanced.

However, there were some nasty surprises. The Nygga, of Lake Parunal, are the only truly aquatic race - that we know about - and are only limited by their living underwater; which is why they do come up onto the shores for things. We found that 'creatures' like the Serudla, Feshenga, and the Sro could all use tools and speak; there are also the small populations that form the loose alliance of the Brotherhood of the Half-Human. The big difference is in language - if it can talk to you, it's what Phil defined as 'sapient'. (Phil considered that some of his players - all in the other group - did not meet this definition.)

Hra are not sapient. The Temple of Ksarul makes them for themselves and the Temple of Sarku, and they are dangerous if the party gets sloppy. They are used as guardians, and pretty effective; we've been ambushed by them on more then a few occasions, and had to fight our way out of the trap. (There'll be more about them in Book One, by the way.)

No problem; always happy to answer questions!

From Shemek hiTankolel:

Going back to an earlier point I raised. You said that Ssu typically weren't organized in the same way that troops in the Five Empires would be, but that there could be hundreds, or even thousands of them deployed on the field. Just out of curiosity, how would you rate the Ssu? When they formed up and took on a cohort of Tsolyanu's best, assuming equal numbers on both sides, who would you think would be the stronger unit (at least on paper)?

They are usually very decent light infantry, at least in our fights with them. If it was down to equal numbers, the human infantry would kill them hands down. They just don;t have the numbers or the weaponry to take on one of the Five Empires, but they are a very real threat to the small states like Pechano where the humans simply don;t have the resources to overwhelm the Ssu.

Do Ssu employ more "mundane" artillery like onagers, ballista, etc, or do they exclusively use devices of the ancients, like lightning bringers?

Yes, but not very much; they are not skilled at sieges, for example. The lighting-bringers are rare - and have a habit of exploding at the most inopportune moments, too. Nobody uses them in 'serious' warfare; they are too precious, and too dangerous.

Battle magic is not uncommon in the Five Empires, and I presume all nations essentially employ the same types of spells with, perhaps, some regional differences being present. What about the Ssu? I know that Phil has described them as being fearsome spell casters, but is their battle magic, as far as you know, the same as human battle magic?

Yep, you are right. We never saw any 'military' magic users with the Ssu. It was individual sorcerers doing their own thing, and these usually got smothered pretty fast by either our own magic-users or by our missile troops. The normal way to deal with them was to kill them quick, using ranged weapons, and then get on with the fight.

How obviously noticeable and effective are Ssu leaders/commanders. Do they tramp on to the battlefield with some type of retinue, or under Standards/Battle Flags? Do they lead from the front, or do they look just like one of the rank and file. In fact do they even have someone (thing?) that we would be able to even recognize as a commander?

They do have leaders, who can be distinguished (and targeted!) by their wearing armor or other decoration. They do have standards - not battle flags - and can be picked out by these as well. Lower-level 'officers' do fight from the front, as we saw, and more 'senior' ones tend to command from the back. Their chiming voices do carry well on battlefields, especially smaller ones, and they seem to be able to do a pretty good job of command and control - which is why we tried very, very hard to kill them as quickly as possible.

The nearest analogy that I can think of is the Zulu impi; they hit fast and hard, and about all you can do is kill them as fast as you can. We had one fight that was, for all intents and purposes, Rourke's Drift with Tsolyani and Ssu, which was really interesting because Phil knew little, if anything, about the actual battle - long past his period.

Does this help?

Originally Posted by Shemek hiTankolel

Recently came across this. Kind of interesting, especially if linguistics is your thing. Some nice anecdotes as well. I thought it was good background noise while I was painting miniatures. Here's the link:

http://conlangery.com/2015/12/01/con...-115-tsolyani/

Shemek

This is a very good interview, really, and shows what Dr. Raymond is capable of when he's not having issues over 'control' and 'prestige'. And I'll just leave it at that, thank you.

Speaking of standards and 'battle flags'...

Each of the Five Empires has a particular style of standard, usually based on ancient examples. The Tsolyani, for example, use poles with plumes and devices; the Yan Kor sculpted clan emblems and totems; the Salarvyani cloth banners that hang from cross-pieces, like the Italian gonfalon; The Mu'uglavyani long trailing cloth banners like medieval standards; the Livyani - as might be expected - all sorts of mysterious glyphs and emblems of the Shadow Gods.

The small states tend to copy their nearest neighbor, which makes sense. Even in Tsolyanu, the location of the legion's base will affect their choices; 'western' legions tend to look a lot more Mu'uglavyani, while 'eastern' ones a lot more Salarvyani. My own legion has banners, as their primary standard - showing the device of the Ancient Nluss, the Dragon and the Flame - and also staffs with devices for the lower echelons of command.

What we don't have is any sort of 'system' to the subject. We had a guy write in to Phil along about 1978, who insisted that we had to use 'proper' battle flags for our units. And, by the strangest of happenstances, he was kind enough to include a detailed set of artwork for these 'proper' battle flags that he insisted we should adopt and publish in order to make Tekumel "more acceptable to the historical miniatures player".

If I had been Napoleon, I would have sued for copyright violations, plagarism, or IP abuse. The gent's system was the same - and I do mean the same! - as what the French Army under the First Empire used. I think his idea was that since the French and Tsolyani armies wear blue, then they should have the same flags. Same for the Mu'uglavyani - they wear red, so they got period British standards, two to a unit, and to the exact same pattern.

Phil wrote the guy back, explaining in very kind a polite terms that things on Tekumel were not done that way. He got very huffy, and told us that he was going to boycott the miniatures line. We got stuff like this in all the time, which is one of the big reasons why I am delighted not to be on the 'commercial' side of the house...

Oh, sigh...

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

From Shemek hiTankolel:

1. Yes, but not very much; they are not skilled at sieges, for example. The lighting-bringers are rare - and have a habit of exploding at the most inopportune moments, too. Nobody uses them in 'serious' warfare; they are too precious, and too dangerous.

2. They do have leaders, who can be distinguished (and targeted!) by their wearing armor or other decoration. They do have standards - not battle flags - and can be picked out by these as well. Lower-level 'officers' do fight from the front, as we saw, and more 'senior' ones tend to command from the back. Their chiming voices do carry well on battlefields, especially smaller ones, and they seem to be able to do a pretty good job of command and control - which is why we tried very, very hard to kill them as quickly as possible.

3. The nearest analogy that I can think of is the Zulu impi; they hit fast and hard, and about all you can do is kill them as fast as you can. We had one fight that was, for all intents and purposes, Rourke's Drift with Tsolyani and Ssu, which was really interesting because Phil knew little, if anything, about the actual battle - long past his period.

Does this help?

Chirine,

Thank you for the responses Incredibly helpful as usual!
I've got this bee in my bonnet recently to do some large scale (strategic level) war gaming on Tekumel. I'm developing and adjusting an old rule set so that I can have my group do some "generalship" in the future. Although the rules are for some type of generic fantasy hex and chit war game they really lend themselves to Tekumel IMO. I just got my copy of Tony Bath's book and I am feverishly working on a campaign. Doing the orbat for the Tsolyani legions was a huge undertaking. I was able to find an excel spreadsheet somewhere on line that lists every legion, its equipment, number of cohorts, commander, etc.. and this made it somewhat easier. I've started on the Salarvayani and Pechani Nchesh's, but once that's done I've got to find the Yan Koryani (and allies), Mu'ugalavyani, and Livyani orbats. This may pose a problem

1. I think the lightning bringers are one of those "cool" weapons. Look great on the table top but don't do too much. As is often the case, just like in life, they're good from afar, but far from good.

2. That makes sense, and is kind of how I pictured it for some reason. Like in the Pink Floyd song:" 'Forward' he cried from, the rear,
And the front rank died."

3. Let's hope a Ssu Shaka doesn't arise:jaw-dropping:

Shemek

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

This is a very good interview, really, and shows what Dr. Raymond is capable of when he's not having issues over 'control' and 'prestige'. And I'll just leave it at that, thank you.

Seemed pretty even-keeled to me. I liked the story about the Shipali family.

Shemek