Thread: Questioning chirine ba kal

Originally Posted by Greentongue

I guess it can be played "loosely" then as long as you don't do something that your "modern family" wouldn't like when judged by modern values.

Even "black sheep" usually don't intentionally make the entire family mad at them.
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In my game I tried to use "fashion" as a visual status indicator for someone that "wasn't from around here" to be able to read.
With the higher the maintenance the higher the person's status.
Such as fabric, cut of the fabric, accessories, hairdo, nail polish, makeup, body paint, etc...
So some things are intrinsically valuable and others represent the required effort required.

Is this something you think would fit the setting?
If not, what would?
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Yes, exactly. The 'black sheep' of the family are also the ones that the clans, temples, etc., tend to educate and support as the 'adventurers' of the social group, the ones at the top of the bell curve (usually, in my experience) that are the ones who explore the Underworlds, staff the legions, and lead merchant caravans / trade expeditions into the unknown. Which, with Tekumel, often starts right outside your front door.

'Normal folks', the rest of the family, are quite happy to sit around the clan house and discuss the 'black sheep' in Hushed Tones, agog at the latest scandal or outrage; the clan elders (etc.) will then Think Of Something For The 'Black Sheep To Do'. It makes for some great adventures!

You are also exactly correct about the importance of visual display in the cultures of Tekumel. There is no 'nondescript' clothing; you can read a person's life from what they wear, with the higher the status the more clothes and ornaments they are wearing. Clan and Temple are all shown by wearing the appropriate glyphs on one's costume, which also tell you instantly who and what you're talking to.

The running joke, amongst us very old-timers, is that you an always tell who the secret police are - they're the ones with the most ornate uniforms!

And it's also very finely graded, too; once you get up through the more and more elaborate outfits, up through the 'upper middle class' and into the 'high class' nobility, the costumes become more and more elaborate and use less and less cloth - what little the fashionable noblewoman might be wearing is also the rarest and most expensive stuff available.

Chirine, for example, is instantly recognizable by anyone for what he is - a soldier-priest of the Temple for Vimuhla - by his flame-red tunic and kilt combination, with a leather over-tunic and belt with pouches and 'informal' weapons. In full armor, reserved for the biggest social functions or pitched battles, you can 'read' his career in the inscriptions on the plates - and his collection of scars, from the times he forgot to duck!

Wonderful questions - keep them coming!

Nobody seems to write Sword & Sorcery any more. Lieber's first Fafhrd & Grey Mouser story was originally titled "Two Sought Adventure." What ever happened to adventurers who adventured for the sake of adventure?

On the other hand, if I never read another "Destroy the Evil Magical Doohickey and Save the World" trilogy again, it will be altogether too soon.

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

You are also exactly correct about the importance of visual display in the cultures of Tekumel. There is no 'nondescript' clothing; you can read a person's life from what they wear, with the higher the status the more clothes and ornaments they are wearing. Clan and Temple are all shown by wearing the appropriate glyphs on one's costume, which also tell you instantly who and what you're talking to.

For the first couple of months that we played D&D, DMs tended to describe what you saw by title, e.g. "three Swashbucklers" or "four Conjurors" which quickly rise to jokes about the NPCs wearing t-shirts or surcoats with a numeral '5' or the number '3' clearly written on the front. Amazingly descriptions soon changed to the less precise "three men in plate armor" or "four guys in robes."

I guess if we had been on Tekumel we might not have needed to change. Instead we could have just assumed the glyph for five or three were painted on their chlen hide armor or woven into their somewhat utilitarian robes.

Originally Posted by Old Geezer

Nobody seems to write Sword & Sorcery any more. Lieber's first Fafhrd & Grey Mouser story was originally titled "Two Sought Adventure." What ever happened to adventurers who adventured for the sake of adventure?

On the other hand, if I never read another "Destroy the Evil Magical Doohickey and Save the World" trilogy again, it will be altogether too soon.

It went out of fashion when Deep Thought and Deep Meaningful Concepts came in. Two guys on the make for some loot and fun just isn't 'intellectual' enough in today's market, I gather. See also your comments on what happened to Tekumel in the mid-1990s in posts here and elsewhere; you've nailed this one down, Glorious General.

I got good news for you, too; I ain't got none of that in "To Serve The Petal Throne", nor do I got any of that magical doohickey world-saving stuff; it's just a bunch of people out to make some money and have some fun. Which you and managed to do, if I recall correctly...

Which is why, I gather a startling number of Serious Tekumel Fans who I've shared sections of the thing with have hated it - "too light-hearted", "makes Tekumel sound like fun", "tl;dr", "should be more grimdark", " too easy to read", and other complaints too numerous to detail here. It's like the way "John Carter" had to have some Serious Angst loaded into the mix; could have done with out that, but then I also like Frazetta's art - and so do my daughters, which simply shows what a bad parent I am for introducing it to them.

Sigh.

Originally Posted by Bren

For the first couple of months that we played D&D, DMs tended to describe what you saw by title, e.g. "three Swashbucklers" or "four Conjurors" which quickly rise to jokes about the NPCs wearing t-shirts or surcoats with a numeral '5' or the number '3' clearly written on the front. Amazingly descriptions soon changed to the less precise "three men in plate armor" or "four guys in robes."

I guess if we had been on Tekumel we might not have needed to change. Instead we could have just assumed the glyph for five or three were painted on their chlen hide armor or woven into their somewhat utilitarian robes.

Well, if it moves the game along, then I'm all for it. I used to paint such things on figures' shields, so we could tell them apart. Now, I put a colored dot with a unique number on the base, so we can tell everybody apart. And then I do a 3" x 5" index card for the player or non-player that the figures represents.

Do people use index cards, anymore,?

Originally Posted by Greentongue

It is hard enough to give the "feeling of their relative strength" in a setting that is familiar. The example being your Swashbucklers and Conjurers.
How can you do so when everything is alien without obvious clues?

What is wrong with the obvious clues when it is information that characters would know even if the players don't?

At what point in your gaming does "Game" override "Simulation"?
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For me, all the time. My approach is that 'simulation' is a tool for game play; the better I can simulate things, the better the game, but I do all the simulation 'off-stage'; if it gets in the way of the flow of the game play, then I tend to streamline the simulation and number-crunching to make the play flow - and the 'immersion' factor - work more smoothly.

Again, for me this is where things like miniatures, graphics, maps, artwork, and other such game aids really come into play. Ask OG just how many times he's let loose with a heartfelt scream of "YOU BASTARD!" over the years, as he and the rest of the players I've worked for suddenly realize what they are up against...

I give players information that they would know in the world-setting; I don't hold back on this, as I've found that this makes for much better games. See also the game video on my You Tube channel thingy...

Re clothing, etc; there have been several societies, including ancient Sumer and ancient Egypt, where a person's clothing identified them quite precisely; "mid level priest," "low status workman," "royal official with access to the monarch," "wife of important military man," etc. Phil, knowing this, used it. There is a difference between "you know this person is a scholar priest of Ksarul of middle status" and "you know this person is a 5th level magic user with 17 hit points blah blah blah."

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

"makes Tekumel sound like fun",

Good God, Carruthers, we can't have THAT!!