Thread: Questioning chirine ba kal

Originally Posted by AsenRG

I count that as high praise! Thank you for having such a high opinion of my not humble enough self!


My wife just had a good laugh at this list of unacceptable behaviours. She's known for considering every single one of them part of the standard operating procedure for her PCs. Me too, come to think of it. And our players are learning!

This cultural background isn't exactly unfamiliar to us, either. I grew up on a mix of Bulgarian, Greek, Indian, Chinese, Scandinavian, German, Japanese and Central Asian tales and legends. So have most of my regular players.
Thing is, these things don't shock us, it's just stuff that has happened and still happens.


Glad to hear that. Passing on the next...


Just one more question. Do the amulets work?


No garden around, I can bring stuff only to my country house.


Well, I get that. I just don't want players mentioning them too often on the table!

You're welcome!

That's a pretty funny observation by your wife - back in the day, we were considered quite the nasty sorts of people by most gamers. Liked the observation about the broad cultural basis, too; I think that has a lot to do with our gaming, as we learned more and more.

Well, usually they do, but also usually the only way to find out is by taking some pretty bad risks. The 'Amulet of Protection Against the Grey Hand' is a really useful amulet, as the Grey Hand is the only way to get really, positively, absolutely dead on Tekuemel - but the only really certain way to see if the thing works is to have somebody use the spell on you while you're wearing it. Other amulets are less dangerous, but also less useful / powerful.

I can understand your point re the Pythons!

Originally Posted by Bren

Well Chirine ba Kal hasn't drowned, has he?

That whole fish bit reminds me of Issek of the Jug.

Nope; in general, one does not go swimming in open water on Tekumel if one is in one's right mind. One is usually eaten by something with big sharp pointy teeth (which beings Tekumel is quite overstocked with) in very short order. The one time the Amulet of the Blue Fish got used was when Arneson drove the boat into the Southern Continent (he was a great sailor, but a terrible navigator), our ship got wrecked on the rocks, and I had to go into the drink to rescue Kathy. It was awful; Chirine is a terrible swimmer, but the amulet seemed to do the trick and she got rescued.

And yes, you are right! I think that may have been shortly after Phil met Fritz Leiber at one of the very early Gen Cons, one at Horticultural hall.

Originally Posted by AsenRG

Well, swashbuckling is something that was obviously popular with your generation. It's popular with people my age as well, but not with people several years older.
Today, the place of the swashbuckling and swords and sorcery is mostly taken by urba fantasy, according to my empirical observations.

I'd agree with this; shifts in interests and tastes over time, and all that...

I'm still thinking about "Honor and Intrigue", too. It looks like a really handy set of tools for the GM to do a really good job of presenting things that are often hard to present in game terms. Running / playing 'Intrigues' can be difficult; coming up with the plots and factions dies take some time and effort, and I think that some sort of record-keeping to keep track of the plotting and skulduggery is going to be vital.

Thank you for the tip about this - I learned something new today, which is a wonderful thing!

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

I'd agree with this; shifts in interests and tastes over time, and all that...

My point is that this is more about a shift in trappings. Coming back to my example, I can think of a few examples of urban fantasy that were borrowing the essence of genres like noir and swashbuckling. The trappings of private eyes and musketeers would be less familiar to people raised on these stories, which might well like essentially the same things. Being a hero(ine) that uses guile and violence to live according to his own code (which might not be society's code), however, wouldn't be anything new.
Except one example might be a pirate, while another is a werewolf.
That's how traditions reinvent themselves, IME.

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

I'm still thinking about "Honor and Intrigue", too. It looks like a really handy set of tools for the GM to do a really good job of presenting things that are often hard to present in game terms. Running / playing 'Intrigues' can be difficult; coming up with the plots and factions dies take some time and effort, and I think that some sort of record-keeping to keep track of the plotting and skulduggery is going to be vital.

Thank you for the tip about this - I learned something new today, which is a wonderful thing!

Yeah, H+I is a wonderful example of a game that would guide you even if you were less familiar with the genre.

Originally Posted by AsenRG

My point is that this is more about a shift in trappings. Coming back to my example, I can think of a few examples of urban fantasy that were borrowing the essence of genres like noir and swashbuckling. The trappings of private eyes and musketeers would be less familiar to people raised on these stories, which might well like essentially the same things. Being a hero(ine) that uses guile and violence to live according to his own code (which might not be society's code), however, wouldn't be anything new.
Except one example might be a pirate, while another is a werewolf.
That's how traditions reinvent themselves, IME.


Yeah, H+I is a wonderful example of a game that would guide you even if you were less familiar with the genre.

I think you're right, here; Conan, at least in the original stories, showed many of the same traits as you mention.

Originally Posted by AsenRG

Well, there are still those that consider us the nasty kind of players. I just think that more and more people are realising that what you play isn't any kind of reflection of your true self, or of anything else for that matter.

An, the dilemma between testing and suffering the results of a failed test, how well do we know it! All charlatans love it, too, or so I hear.

Agreed! There's supposed to be am infallible, sure-fire test for Eyes that has been mentioned on the Yahoo Tekumel forum, but I never saw it used at Phil's in his games. I forget how it works in detail, but the essence is that you have a slave hold various objects and try the Eyes out to see what happens. It's a hugely involved and elaborate process that takes all day - and most of the night, too - and I think we just never had any time for it over the years.

I liked your point about charlatans, too; I had a few fake Eyes and amulets offered to me over the years, and most of the time it was pretty obvious that they were fakes. Deal with the reputable merchants, I always said, and never ever assume anything from anybody.

I made some 'prop' Eyes back a while ago, just for fun; I suppose I should get back into the workshop and make some more...

Originally Posted by Greentongue

How bureaucratic is your version of the world?
I have gotten the impression that the culture has very controlled like historical Asian cultures. Is this a wrong impression?

Do levels 1 - 3 characters have to get permission to do anything out of their "ordinary"? How about the average person?

At level 3 and above, how much are the characters "loose cannons" or are they eccentric (or should they be conforming to social norms)?

At what point (if any) can the characters be eccentric without repercussions?
=

Well, I do what Phil did, on the theory that if was good enough for him it's good enough for me.

1. Depends on where you are. Mu'ugalavya is very heavy on the paperwork, with everything having to be done in quadruplicate, Livyanu and Tsolyanu a lot less - the happy medium, if you will - with Salarvya being almost chaotically disorganized. Yan Kor is just getting started, so they are at about the same level as the Salarvyani, heading to the level of Tsolyanu.

2. Everybody is a 'loose cannon', in some way or another. The basic social unit is the clan, so individuals can pretty do whatever they want to unless they offend somebody. The clan can only do so much to smooth over somebody being offensive, and usually there's a lot of tolerance for what we'd call eccentrics. A wise player always asks first, and if you have the right attitude and possible the right connections one can do pretty much anything that they want to. In general, no matter what one's level might be, this is the basic social policy. Ask your clan elders; they've been around, and can give you good advice.

Like, "Don't pee on the wall of the Temple; the Temple guards will thrash you pretty good, and we'll laugh. And then make you clean it up, sonny."

3. There are some pretty loose cannons in the literature, like the aristocrat who thinks he's one of the Shen, the big reptile non-humans. He's tolerated because he's filthy stinking rich. Out of quite a few of the Professor's PCs, we all had our eccentric aspects; and as long as we paid our taxes, contributed to the clan, and didn't rebel against the Imperium, nobody really cared about what we did.

4. Players can be as eccentric as all heck, provided that they can pay for any offense that they cause - "shamtla" payments. People generally behave pretty well normally - the Great Concordat is a very powerful social force! - and everyone has the Underworlds (where the Concordat does not apply) as a 'safety valve'.

Yes, the cultures are very controlled in comparison to our Western viewpoint of a 'free and open society', but as long as you don't make trouble for other people and for the social units like the clans, temples, and the governments, the Tekumel I played in was pretty wide open and free-wheeling. [Edit for clarity:] The mantra of "Don't do stupid things," like you would in real life, and things are pretty easy. There is a much greater degree of 'social responsibility' to Tekumel then there seems to be in the classic RPG world-settings - you don't get "murderhobos" in Tekumel, for example.

Does this help?