Thread: Questioning chirine ba kal

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

(Psst! What are we talking about, here, Your Generalship Sir? If this is in regard to falling off the table in the 'eroticism' thread, I don't want to know. Was it the baby-eating Bishop of Bath and Wells, perchance?)

Naw, just a non-sequitor for your amusement. Well, and to see if anybody else recognizes it.

"What did you do with the OSHA inspector, Chittibob?"

Although that thread did make me want to get out the brain bleach and wire brush when remembering some of The Other Group's antics. * shudder * Anka'a and Kadarsha playing splishy splashy in a mud puddle is one thing; by the time I left that crew they'd gone all the way to "how sick and twisted can we be?"

Originally Posted by Gronan of Simmerya

Naw, just a non-sequitor for your amusement. Well, and to see if anybody else recognizes it.

"What did you do with the OSHA inspector, Chittibob?"

Although that thread did make me want to get out the brain bleach and wire brush when remembering some of The Other Group's antics. * shudder * Anka'a and Kadarsha playing splishy splashy in a mud puddle is one thing; by the time I left that crew they'd gone all the way to "how sick and twisted can we be?"

Nyuk, Nyuk, Nyuk! We are amused.

Yeah, I hear you. I talked to some of them when I was doing a bit of research for my book, and they are still pretty proud of being the 'edgy' and 'extreme' group.

Anka'a has gotten much more obsessed with this kind of thing over the years. Her current GM panders to this, as part of his being 'edgy' and 'inclusive'; they took a trip to the South Pole military base, and visited the base's shopping area - the PX, actually - and one of The Big Features of this formerly rather generic establishment is a very detailed sex-toy shop. Frm what I've seen, it's all part of this group's rivalry, wanting to be THE LGBT-friendly Tekumel group.

Sigh. Count me out of that, if you would...

Originally Posted by Gronan of Simmerya

Ah, gotcha. Yeah, that's pretty accurate. "Here there be stuff" indeed, where "stuff" is a soup of everything from every book and movie Dave and or Gary ever liked. And frankly I laughed out loud at Gary talking about how he eventually closed the slide to China because bringing people back was such a pain. I've run into a lot of that myself as referee... "Crom dammit, this seemed like a good idea at the time..."

Sending the players to China or Barsoom (or Bazoom, the planet of busty horny Amazons) sounds great as a scribbled note while you're keying the dungeon. And then one day "no shit, there we were."

As somebody said to Beowulf, "now is the time to make good on your boast."

Sign me up for Bazoom...
And my rule for "interdimensional jumping" is "give me more". Then again, that's how my current group got to Tekumel in the first place...

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

Okay, I obviously wasn't clear, if you both misunderstood me. But the link Gronan posted basically says what I meant.

Understood. I think we're all on the same page, as it were.

My point was, Gary and Dave (from what I've been told, mostly by you two...so I might be missing something), had a detailed map of the dungeon, a sketch of the city, and...well, the word "setting here" (or "here there be stuff") written around the city. It was there, them two just didn't bother detailing it.
The Lawful temple was still Lawful even after it became the Lawful temple of "St. Cuthbert of the Cudgel", too. It didn't change, you just got more details on it. And sometimes, those details on different temples would make sense, when you examined them with anthropology, economics and other instruments in mind - sometimes not.
Phil's world had most important details pre-written, though. And his details would make sense when combined, too - which was his greatest strength.
The difference would be like the difference between a heavy preparation GM and an improvisational GM, I suspect.

I'd agree with this.

Well, glad both of you confirm I'm not wide off the mark.

Still, no matter whether they had a pre-written setting, or the outlines of one and some means for adding details on the fly - they weren't changing stuff behind the scenes. These would be a third kind of GMs, which from what I gather wouldn't be popular in the "early scene".

True. Doing it 'on the fly' wasn't something we did, to the bast if my experience. It seemed a little dishonest, for some reason. It was also a lot more work, as you have to take a lot more notes.

Well, I used to see it as dishonest. Then I realised not even the most complete campaign notes would include everything. You need to make up details. And the point where one counts as "on the fly" and the other as "preprepared" is, frankly, arbitrary.
IMO, YMMV and all that jazz, of course.

Again, that's purely my conclusions based on what Gronan and Chirine had mentioned. I might well be wrong. Such is life.

No, I think you're right on target, here.

It's good to be right for things you've never seen!

I pitched once "classical fantasy game" to some players, meaning "swords and sorcery in a magical steampunk world". To me, that's the classical feel. (After all, REH lived before LotR was written).

Sounds cool!!!

Oh, they thought it's cool, too. But they were kinda confused at the "classical" part, since to them, "classical" meant "like Forgotten realms".

You're right that the trick in some games is to act as a conqueror, and in others, the trick is becoming part of things. But curiously, even in the early sources both kinds are represented. I mean, John Carter is trying to become part of Barsoom's society, while Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser are acting as conquerors, and Conan arguably changes his mode of action at some point!

Very much so, and this was the source material not only for the games being written, but for the style of play.

Yeah, the trouble is when they try to mix. You should see the faces of GMs expecting murderhobos when the players start making a power base since day one!

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

Well, I think you have it, here. I reconcile 'making it up' with 'having the details' the same way Phil did. He was very up-front about the fact that nobody, even himself, knew everything that there was to know about Tekumel and that he 'made stuff up' as needed in the course of the game campaign. As he put it "I can't think of everything!" and he was right up front that he very often would include something into his world setting when somebody asked him a question about that subject. For example, we didn't know a lot about the Nyemesel Isles until we went there; Phil used us a lot to explore his world, so that he could incorporate that information into his novels and texts.

Exactly. That's why I stopped seeing "on the fly GMing" as dishonest.
As a bonus, I can run almost any game with 15 minutes of preparation. It helps me with pick-up games.

Phil sad, over and over and over, that taking the world-setting that he had created and published and giving it to one for their use was what the game was all about. He assumed, from the beginning, that people would diverge from his timelines and story arcs; he also encouraged them to tell him about these digressions, as he loved to hear stories about his world just as much as the next fellow. If he thought that the diversion was any good, or of any use, he'd introduce it into his campaign and we'd have to deal with it. (See also Lord Gamalu, from upstate New York.)

Well, I learned that lesson in Talislanta and Exalted. Glad to hear it existed since the beginning, though.

Where Phil got very cranky was when people abused this, sending him unsolicited materials that they insisted that he include in 'Official' Tekumel - and then getting very upset when he'd say no or offer some advice on their work. (Gary had the same problem, over the years, and developed a stock reply.) People would tell Phil, to his face, why he was not doing Tekumel right, and why their material would fix it for him.

Well, of course he wasn't doing Tekumel the way their group would see as right. That's the point of being a GM, Referee, Seneschal, Wulin Sage, Dragon Master, Director, Loremaster or whatever you want to call it... you play what would be fun for you and your friends.

This syndrome got especially bad in the middle 1990s, when 'canon' became the buzzword. To the 'canonistas', doing anything aside from what The Great God said in The Sacred Scrolls is a violation of The One True Faith. I don't understand these folks, frankly; there's what Phil did, there's what I do, there's what you do. It's all equally valid. Unless, of course, you're trying to be the TSR of the late 1980s and into the 1990s.

Well, I guess to them the setting-as-written is like history, and setting-as-edited is like fantasy. And they're there to play a "historical" game.
Me? I don't think this attitude holds well even for historical games. There's way too much stuff we don't know, and I'm constructing my first reenactment set between posts in this forum.

Do I make stuff up? Yes, and so did Phil. (And so did Gary and Dave.) What we do is then write the stuff down, so we have it for later. Do that for forty years, and you get a lot of data built up. As Phil said, use as much or as little of that as you want - it's your campaign.

Yeah, but if you then offload that to a new GM...
The new GM might need to scratch parts of it and start from there.

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

Agreed. I can't run 'Phil's Tekumel'; I've never been to South Asia. I can run something that is pretty close, according to the people who have played in my games and in Phil's, but that's the best I can do.

I admit I prefer going for Souteastern Asia for inspiration instead of South Asia. It still seems to work.

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

Wonderful question - Phil didn't talk too much about this in the Sourcebook, so we'll have to fall back on game sessions.

What we call 'dowries' are a part of the whole process of getting 'married'; this is usually negotiated by the various lineage and clan elders. People wanting to get formally married go through their clan(s), as it's a very 'civil' process and not a religious one. (One always invites the Temple officials to the wedding, though; it's considered polite.) The parties negotiate who is going to give what; normally a wealthier clan or lineage will provide more of the 'wedding gifts', but in a respectable proportion to what the less-wealthier cal can afford - it is considered very rude to 'over give'.

The idea it to set up the newlyweds with what they will need to get started in life, and to demonstrate the wealth and status of the clan(s). Both woman and men get this kind of thing, so yes, a man can be provided with a 'dowery'. The wedding agreement will spell out where the newlyweds will live - in which clan house, usually - and what clan and lineage any children will belong to. It will also specify who owns what property, making a distinction between personal property owned by the newlyweds, and any clan property that might be involved.

Yes, there are traditional items given! Bedding, furniture, tableware - and chests to store all of it in - are all very common gifts, and the wedding contract will specify who is responsible for giving them and owning them. And inheriting them, too. The actual festivities are held in the clan house, usually the larger and more wealthier one, and there is much feasting and party-giving. The 'dowery gifts' are normally presented at that time, as well as gifts from the relatives, friends, and associates of the newlyweds; baskets of fruit, fine wines, bolts of cloth, you name it; everybody confers beforehand, to make sure that everyone gives the right gift - and that there are no duplications.

As you mentioned, there can be differences between the status and wealth of the clans involved - sometimes really huge ones. A young lady from Sea Blue might happen to fall in love with a young man from Woven Mat; if they want to get formally married - and the clans will both suggest that they simply see each other and even live together instead, due to the difference in social status - then the clan elders will get together and figure out what they'll do to allow this to happen - and not make either clan look bad. In this case, the lower status clan will provide one class of gifts, like sleeping mats and furniture, and the higher status clan the metal gifts like lamps and such.

Cash gifts are sometimes given, if the newlyweds are affluent in their own right, but are not as popular with the relatives; friends and associates would be correct in doing this, as they may not know what the newlyweds need - distant relatives will also do this. Cash gifts are always given discreetly, and not flaunted - it would be considered rude and uncultured to do so.

The wedding gifts being stolen, either before or after the wedding festivities, would be a major scandal and would incite the clans involved to major efforts - and very likely violence - to get them back. Not only would it be rude to the newlyweds, it's an insult to the clans, and will result in some real excitement. The clans will do everything that they can to keep this scandal from becoming known, and will spare no expense - read hire player characters - to 'solve the crime' and recover the goods.

Does this help? I can go into more detail, having been a bystander to the negotiations over Chirine's wedding contracts. I should note that in an existing family setting, the Senior Wife (also called the Lady of the House) will be the one making the decisions and negotiating the contract. A smart husband(s) will keep his mouth shut and keep his hands out of this process, and let Herself run things.

[It works for me. I run the legion, and Si N'te runs the family. I say "Yes, dear" a lot, smile a lot, and sleep where I'm told to. - Chirine]

["Thank you, my husband. The Adjunant would like to see you in your office. Now." "Yes, dear." "Thank you, my husband." (smiles) In my husband's culture, being able to support a number of wives and concubines denotes one's wealth and status, and since my husband is a great lord it is my responsibility to make sure that he has the proper household for that position. Happily, I am blessed by the goddess Mretten with some very kind and wonderful friends who are also my husband's friends. They needed places, I needed help managing things and taking care of the children - which is really what it is all about, after all - and everyone gets what they want and the kind of relationship that they want. We let him run the military, and we run everything else (smiles) - Si N'te]

Might I add, that's the smart approach...

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

Anka'a has gotten much more obsessed with this kind of thing over the years. Her current GM panders to this, as part of his being 'edgy' and 'inclusive'; they took a trip to the South Pole military base, and visited the base's shopping area - the PX, actually - and one of The Big Features of this formerly rather generic establishment is a very detailed sex-toy shop. Frm what I've seen, it's all part of this group's rivalry, wanting to be THE LGBT-friendly Tekumel group.

Sigh. Count me out of that, if you would...

Well, it seems to me that Tekumel wouldn't care much about stuff like orientation (the very concept of which as a trait and not as something you do, being a rather new one). I mean, clan elders would ask you to have scions of the clan.
As soon as you have that - and seriously, with Tekumel's sexuality, that shouldn't be an issue even for gay couples - you can do what you want.
I guess that either makes me progressive, or a patriarchal, entitled cis hetero guy, depending on who you ask. I'm fine with either title, and frankly, I consider such titles to be telling much...for the person that bestowed them.

Originally Posted by AsenRG

Well, it seems to me that Tekumel wouldn't care much about stuff like orientation (the very concept of which as a trait and not as something you do, being a rather new one). I mean, clan elders would ask you to have scions of the clan.
As soon as you have that - and seriously, with Tekumel's sexuality, that shouldn't be an issue even for gay couples - you can do what you want.
I guess that either makes me progressive, or a patriarchal, entitled cis hetero guy, depending on who you ask. I'm fine with either title, and frankly, I consider such titles to be telling much...for the person that bestowed them.

As an issue on Tekumel, it's a not starter. Nobody much cares about it, and the Imperium takes the position that if you pay your taxes and don't start a rebellion, it's just not their problem. (The Imperium has lots of other, more serious, problems to worry about.)

It's become a hot-button issue due to some of the personalities involved. One of these people played a gay character in my campaigns for years, and came up with this long and involved back-story about how badly they had been persecuted for being gay. After a few sessions where it came up, I pointed out that there had been nothing of the sort in the decades they'd been playing with me, and I asked point-blank where the persecution had come from. Thy told me that they'd made it all up, as it fit in better with the narrative they were espousing in their real-world activites as a LGBT activist. They were pretty upset that I would not change things to suit their political agenda, in the game, so that they could further their LGBT political activities.

Another member of the group said it all reminded him of gay bath house politics and intrigues, and I have to say that I think he was right.

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

As an issue on Tekumel, it's a not starter. Nobody much cares about it, and the Imperium takes the position that if you pay your taxes and don't start a rebellion, it's just not their problem. (The Imperium has lots of other, more serious, problems to worry about.)

It's become a hot-button issue due to some of the personalities involved. One of these people played a gay character in my campaigns for years, and came up with this long and involved back-story about how badly they had been persecuted for being gay. After a few sessions where it came up, I pointed out that there had been nothing of the sort in the decades they'd been playing with me, and I asked point-blank where the persecution had come from. Thy told me that they'd made it all up, as it fit in better with the narrative they were espousing in their real-world activites as a LGBT activist. They were pretty upset that I would not change things to suit their political agenda, in the game, so that they could further their LGBT political activities.

Another member of the group said it all reminded him of gay bath house politics and intrigues, and I have to say that I think he was right.

Is this my cue to say "Mr. Brunel, you have a railroad to build?"

Originally Posted by Gronan of Simmerya

Is this my cue to say "Mr. Brunel, you have a railroad to build?"

Probably. I'm in the process of tossing out all the stuff we've been stuck with ove the decades, like the sets for the now-abandoned Klingon fans' local-access TV show. (Need the interior of a D-7? Have I got deal for you!) I'm looking forward to gettine a lot of space back here at the house, and the Sandcastle-on-Sea Railway will live again.

(http://members.bitstream.net/~minetyoo/ he said modestly. I got to visit the Weymouth Quay Tramway and Minety, once upon a time, and touched the broad-gauge rail that's still in place.)

The new regime seems to suit me; I got my set of scale furniture built, and a little orrery of Tekumel's solar system built this past week. I also added a bit to my book; I am now up to 120,574 words, and I'm off on the adventure of the Affair of the Malchairan Emerald.

It's been a very good week...

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

Need the interior of a D-7? Have I got deal for you!

If only it had been a K't'inga perhaps we could have talked...

Originally Posted by The_Shadow

If only it had been a K't'inga perhaps we could have talked...

Sorry. What they wanted was the 'classic Trek' look to their sets; the actual sets were the usual set corridors redressed. So that's what I gave them, built to be moved into and out of the public access studios that they were using. They lost interest after a while, when they found out just how much grinding work television production really is - they didn't know anything about editing and post production, for example - they sort of faded away and left me with a bunch of set elements in storage.

>shrug<

Originally Posted by Greentongue

30,000+ views. I guess if this was Twitter you would be a world wide celeb.
Hopefully it indicates that your book will at least attract a few eyes and may spark off a few more games.

I think an important factor that has been brushed over is the TIME that was spent playing. A lot of the details we hear of sound as if they leaped full cloth into existence where as there was mention the game days and real days were mostly in sync.
Plus the later days when so much had been established, are the one more clearly recalled.
It would be nice to have a "Prequel" that gave an insight to the first few levels of character (and setting) development.
=

Oh; you're right! I guess I'm a little surprised that so many people drop by and have a look here; my random musings are really driven by all of you, I'd like to think...

I hope that the account of our adventures inspires people to get out there and play, in any world and in any set of rules. We had a lot of fun, and I think that's what's the important thing.

I agree with you about the time factor. I have the impression that most campaigns (as we called them) these days last for a relatively short time; we went on and on and on for literally decades. I agree with you about the 'prequel' idea, which will be what Book One will be. That's proving the hardest one to write, actually, as a lot of our adventures were not all that easy to describe - a lot of them were more or less 'dungeon crawls', set against the background of the world setting, and were frankly - plot-wise - kind of run of the mill. we had an immense amount of fun doing them, as we were 'learning the ropes', as it were, and my biggest challenge is making that process interesting and hopefully useful to the reader (and gamer, of course.) We had a front-row seat as Phil's 1940s - 1950s creation evolved and grew under the impetus of our being there and asking all sorts of questions.

"Those pesky player-characters!" as Phil said on occasion...