Thread: Questioning chirine ba kal

Originally Posted by Greentongue

This may be IT.
Where the feeling that you have to have a masters degree in Tekumel to play it, or at least run it.
This giving the sense of "making it up as you went along" being antithetical to the play style.

There is some call to "make it your own" which implies that you would "make things up" in your own version of your game.
How do you reconcile this?

What is WRONG with taking the bones of the setting and adding your own meat?
=

Well, I think you have it, here. I reconcile 'making it up' with 'having the details' the same way Phil did. He was very up-front about the fact that nobody, even himself, knew everything that there was to know about Tekumel and that he 'made stuff up' as needed in the course of the game campaign. As he put it "I can't think of everything!" and he was right up front that he very often would include something into his world setting when somebody asked him a question about that subject. For example, we didn't know a lot about the Nyemesel Isles until we went there; Phil used us a lot to explore his world, so that he could incorporate that information into his novels and texts.

Phil sad, over and over and over, that taking the world-setting that he had created and published and giving it to one for their use was what the game was all about. He assumed, from the beginning, that people would diverge from his timelines and story arcs; he also encouraged them to tell him about these digressions, as he loved to hear stories about his world just as much as the next fellow. If he thought that the diversion was any good, or of any use, he'd introduce it into his campaign and we'd have to deal with it. (See also Lord Gamalu, from upstate New York.)

Where Phil got very cranky was when people abused this, sending him unsolicited materials that they insisted that he include in 'Official' Tekumel - and then getting very upset when he'd say no or offer some advice on their work. (Gary had the same problem, over the years, and developed a stock reply.) People would tell Phil, to his face, why he was not doing Tekumel right, and why their material would fix it for him.

This syndrome got especially bad in the middle 1990s, when 'canon' became the buzzword. To the 'canonistas', doing anything aside from what The Great God said in The Sacred Scrolls is a violation of The One True Faith. I don't understand these folks, frankly; there's what Phil did, there's what I do, there's what you do. It's all equally valid. Unless, of course, you're trying to be the TSR of the late 1980s and into the 1990s.

Do I make stuff up? Yes, and so did Phil. (And so did Gary and Dave.) What we do is then write the stuff down, so we have it for later. Do that for forty years, and you get a lot of data built up. As Phil said, use as much or as little of that as you want - it's your campaign.

Originally Posted by Bren

Nothing.

But it will piss off some subset of the people who either don't like the new you added, who do like some old that you left out, just generally can't deal with change or the unexpected, or really don't like the world that you created and that it has the same name as some other world they liked better.

You see the same sort of thing in any RPG setting based on an existent canon (e.g. Star Wars, LotR, Star Trek) or with any movie adaptation of a beloved book.

Oh, true. How very, very true.

Originally Posted by Gronan of Simmerya

Nothing. What Chirine and I are doing is attempting to report as best we can how Phil's actual Tekumel felt different from Blackmoor and Greyhawk.

It is not possible for anybody but Phil to run "Phil's actual Tekumel," because even if you had 100% of Phil's information and knowledge, you still wouldn't be Phil. So don't try! Run YOUR Tekumel.

Agreed. I can't run 'Phil's Tekumel'; I've never been to South Asia. I can run something that is pretty close, according to the people who have played in my games and in Phil's, but that's the best I can do.

Originally Posted by Gronan of Simmerya

Ah, gotcha. Yeah, that's pretty accurate. "Here there be stuff" indeed, where "stuff" is a soup of everything from every book and movie Dave and or Gary ever liked. And frankly I laughed out loud at Gary talking about how he eventually closed the slide to China because bringing people back was such a pain. I've run into a lot of that myself as referee... "Crom dammit, this seemed like a good idea at the time..."

Sending the players to China or Barsoom (or Bazoom, the planet of busty horny Amazons) sounds great as a scribbled note while you're keying the dungeon. And then one day "no shit, there we were."

As somebody said to Beowulf, "now is the time to make good on your boast."

Agreed; ain't it the truth...

Originally Posted by Greentongue

How do dowries work?
Are they only for women?
Are there traditional items included in them?
What is the difference in value between clans of different status?
What happens if a dowry is stolen before a wedding? after one?
=

Wonderful question - Phil didn't talk too much about this in the Sourcebook, so we'll have to fall back on game sessions.

What we call 'dowries' are a part of the whole process of getting 'married'; this is usually negotiated by the various lineage and clan elders. People wanting to get formally married go through their clan(s), as it's a very 'civil' process and not a religious one. (One always invites the Temple officials to the wedding, though; it's considered polite.) The parties negotiate who is going to give what; normally a wealthier clan or lineage will provide more of the 'wedding gifts', but in a respectable proportion to what the less-wealthier cal can afford - it is considered very rude to 'over give'.

The idea it to set up the newlyweds with what they will need to get started in life, and to demonstrate the wealth and status of the clan(s). Both woman and men get this kind of thing, so yes, a man can be provided with a 'dowery'. The wedding agreement will spell out where the newlyweds will live - in which clan house, usually - and what clan and lineage any children will belong to. It will also specify who owns what property, making a distinction between personal property owned by the newlyweds, and any clan property that might be involved.

Yes, there are traditional items given! Bedding, furniture, tableware - and chests to store all of it in - are all very common gifts, and the wedding contract will specify who is responsible for giving them and owning them. And inheriting them, too. The actual festivities are held in the clan house, usually the larger and more wealthier one, and there is much feasting and party-giving. The 'dowery gifts' are normally presented at that time, as well as gifts from the relatives, friends, and associates of the newlyweds; baskets of fruit, fine wines, bolts of cloth, you name it; everybody confers beforehand, to make sure that everyone gives the right gift - and that there are no duplications.

As you mentioned, there can be differences between the status and wealth of the clans involved - sometimes really huge ones. A young lady from Sea Blue might happen to fall in love with a young man from Woven Mat; if they want to get formally married - and the clans will both suggest that they simply see each other and even live together instead, due to the difference in social status - then the clan elders will get together and figure out what they'll do to allow this to happen - and not make either clan look bad. In this case, the lower status clan will provide one class of gifts, like sleeping mats and furniture, and the higher status clan the metal gifts like lamps and such.

Cash gifts are sometimes given, if the newlyweds are affluent in their own right, but are not as popular with the relatives; friends and associates would be correct in doing this, as they may not know what the newlyweds need - distant relatives will also do this. Cash gifts are always given discreetly, and not flaunted - it would be considered rude and uncultured to do so.

The wedding gifts being stolen, either before or after the wedding festivities, would be a major scandal and would incite the clans involved to major efforts - and very likely violence - to get them back. Not only would it be rude to the newlyweds, it's an insult to the clans, and will result in some real excitement. The clans will do everything that they can to keep this scandal from becoming known, and will spare no expense - read hire player characters - to 'solve the crime' and recover the goods.

Does this help? I can go into more detail, having been a bystander to the negotiations over Chirine's wedding contracts. I should note that in an existing family setting, the Senior Wife (also called the Lady of the House) will be the one making the decisions and negotiating the contract. A smart husband(s) will keep his mouth shut and keep his hands out of this process, and let Herself run things.

[It works for me. I run the legion, and Si N'te runs the family. I say "Yes, dear" a lot, smile a lot, and sleep where I'm told to. - Chirine]

["Thank you, my husband. The Adjunant would like to see you in your office. Now." "Yes, dear." "Thank you, my husband." (smiles) In my husband's culture, being able to support a number of wives and concubines denotes one's wealth and status, and since my husband is a great lord it is my responsibility to make sure that he has the proper household for that position. Happily, I am blessed by the goddess Mretten with some very kind and wonderful friends who are also my husband's friends. They needed places, I needed help managing things and taking care of the children - which is really what it is all about, after all - and everyone gets what they want and the kind of relationship that they want. We let him run the military, and we run everything else (smiles) - Si N'te]

Clap!STOMP!Clap!STOMP!

"And the validity of my statement is further proven by the fact that the Archbishop has fallen off his table."

Originally Posted by Greentongue

If it was cash gifts given discreetly that was hijacked, would the clans still do everything that they can to keep this scandal from becoming known, and spare no expense to 'solve the crime' and recover the goods?

I ask because in my game the hijackers got hijacked themselves and wonder just how much effort would have been/being spent locating the lost dowry?

I assume there would be a reward for its recovery by a third party.
=

Yes, they would. Aside from the value of the cash, it's a huge insult to both clans and an embarrassment to everyone. The clan elders will pretty much go berserk over this.

Oh, dear. One of those incidents. If I were the hijackers, I would seek out and hijack the hijackers who hijacked them, and get the loot back. I would, if I were in this situation, bring back some body parts from the hijackers of your hijackers, and tell the clan involved that I'd managed to recover their stolen property. Because...

Why, yes, there will be a reward, and the clan will not cut off useful parts of my personal body and feed them to me in various rude ways.

My, oh, my; your players - I presume it's the players - are deep in the soup this time. Have they considered a trip to the Southern Continent or the Nyemsel Isles in the very near future? I know this sea captain who offers package tours...

Originally Posted by Gronan of Simmerya

Clap!STOMP!Clap!STOMP!

"And the validity of my statement is further proven by the fact that the Archbishop has fallen off his table."

(Psst! What are we talking about, here, Your Generalship Sir? If this is in regard to falling off the table in the 'eroticism' thread, I don't want to know. Was it the baby-eating Bishop of Bath and Wells, perchance?)