Thread: Questioning chirine ba kal

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

"Finders' Keepers, Losers' Weepers", as a big-name Tsolyani scholar (Firu ba Yeker, actually) once said to me.

So much more straightforward than "uti possidetis" or even "possession is nine-tenths of the law." Firu ba Yeker sounds like an anagram. I can get "Barker" out of it, but I can't figure out how to decipher "Fiu Ye".

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

Right - let me try this in sections...

1. Pressure - The problem is that, over the years, I've been the lynchpin of getting Tekumel out to the world. These factions have the idea that if only they - and they alone - can get control of me, I'll continue to produce for them and they can have all the money and prestige - but without the work.
And yes, once EPT was published, this became nonsense. In the summer of 1975, to be exact.

Yeah, that's why it's kinda surprising me. But then I remember all the RPG fans that know more all kinds of trivia about Star Wars or some other movies, and I think I see their logic, too.

2. 'Lazy GMing' - Nope, I don't work this out during the game. I do everything in advance, and have it all on note cards. I keep the note cards handy, but with my memory I usually don't need them.

Well, I think Bren is like you. I'm lazy.

3. Railroading - this is based on an assumption; this came from a local 'indie' gamer, who's of the opinion that any game that predates the OSR has got to be 'railroady' and without 'full player agency'.

And I'd like to point out that indie gamers are exactly as likely as anyone to be using recreational drugs. So my theory still stands until disproven.

I've noticed that a lot of OSR and indie people have a lot of assumptions about the way I game, and won't game with me based on those assumptions. And, then, as you might expect, if they actually do watch a game I run, then they want to play...

That happens a lot, I'm sure.

And your points about OD&D being almost a story game are right on. At least, that's the way I saw it being played.

Nothing wrong with that in my book. It just contributes to making me mildly amused when I hear a D&D player criticising "those awful story games that aren't real RPGs"!

4. Information release - Yep. I said the same thing, many times over the years, and got blown off. Which is why we are where we are today.

Yeah...people that would blow that off might want to look in the experience of, I don't know, Tribe 8. Which had a great metaplot, by all accounts...

5. Breakfast - I expected nothing, got nothing, and now we're done with them. And they still can't figure out why.

Understood, and no more needs be said.

6. Usefullness - I try; keep asking questions!

I am asking, whenever I reach a moment I have to ask. Too bad my Tekumel group didn't have time for RPGs during the holidays.

7. Outreach - Well, I was told that I needed to move everything to the local game shop for the game, to suit their schedule. I pointed out that this was going to be a pretty big effort, and they looked at me blankly. So, no Braunstein for them.

Oh, not just a specific time and location, but the specific time and location they specified?
Yeah, that's unreasonable to ask, unless they were paying you.

8. Game design - Yeah, I thought so to, but this 'flowchart' approach is the way this person does all of his games. It's very ponderous, and take forever to get anywhere on the flowchart.

You talking about Ron Edwards? Well, he makes some nice games (and some that seem fun, though I have no desire to play them). If it works for him, and gives results, I would assume he has a working idea that he cannot communicate to me.
Or maybe it's just an idea I disagree with, but it still works for him, and I can use the end results - his games - though maybe I'm using them in ways he didn't anticipate. No way to tell until I see the guy in person and play a game with him - which is unlikely to happen.

9. FATE - Basic FATE, or whatever the core rules are called. Huge rules book, I thought.

Fate Core is 308 pages, which is a medium rules book in my opinion. Longer than it needs to be, but the same rules can be explained in 3 pages...some fans did so in order to give handouts to their players. You just lose the rule examples and condense them a whole lot, which might lead to misunderstanding, but it's not like you need the book for reference
Now, something like Pathfinder is triple that, and I suspect it can stop a bullet. What's worse is, any attempt to condense it would require the book for reference. That's huge for me as well.

10. Buying slaves / owning slaves - You are right; owning slaves is considered to be a display of wealth and status. It's the act of buying of the slaves that's considered sordid and less then noble. People who buy lots of slaves are often considered 'new rich' and not all that classy; it's sort of assumed that a really proper clan has had slaves for generations, and so their slaves are better then some new ones bought by a newly rich person. So, having slaves is a good thing, while buying them is a bad thing. (Maybe the stork brings them, or something.) I think it has a lot to do with the very low social status of the slavers, more then anything else.

I guess you don't want to associate with people that would treat you as cattle if you could avoid it. Sounds reasonable.
Also, sounds like if you can buy slaves secretly, it's all good.

Originally Posted by Gronan of Simmerya

Like many societies on this world, social rules in Tsolyanu aren't always logical!

Wine, slaves, and money are obviously best when they've mellowed in the family vaults for a few generations.

I'd contend that it's logical for rich people to avoid those that got rich this generation or the previous!
They would know how their ancestors got rich, and what their kids were like, and might not be looking forward to drinking with that kind of people!

Originally Posted by Bren

So much more straightforward than "uti possidetis" or even "possession is nine-tenths of the law." Firu ba Yeker sounds like an anagram. I can get "Barker" out of it, but I can't figure out how to decipher "Fiu Ye".

I'd guess it's just Phil, written as "Fil", Barker.

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

Gotcha. I never really understood GNS theory; I thought it felt like 'over-thinking' the subject.

Part of the problem is that most of what is said about the subject is just hot air. It's pompous gasbags gassing at one another on the internet to show everyone how terribly clever they and how terribly deep their deep thinking is. It's just a lot of ego stroking and wankery.

Also, It's very jargon heavy but none of the jargon actually means anything. I remember a thread at rpg.net that went on and on for page after page with people arguing about what makes a game a narrative game. It went nowhere because they all used the same jargon but no two of them neat the same thing by it.

In the end, it just doesn't have much to do with how most successful games are written or what most people actually do at the tabletop. They just have very little to do with what most of the people in the hobby are doing.

Originally Posted by Bren

So much more straightforward than "uti possidetis" or even "possession is nine-tenths of the law." Firu ba Yeker sounds like an anagram. I can get "Barker" out of it, but I can't figure out how to decipher "Fiu Ye".

You actually have it - 'phil' / 'firu' - 'barker' / 'ba' 'yeker'.

It's one of Phil's very first 'in-jokes' for Tekumel; it's on some of the 1950s artwork that latter appeared in EPT. Phil loved literary and linguistic jokes, and this is one of them; it's his original PC, the retired scribe from the Temple of Sarku: Firu ba Yeker, of the Clan of the Uttermost Secret. No matter where we'd go on Tekumel, there would be Firu, sitting in the market place, telling stories to the passer-by for a few coppers. He always knew all the local gossip and scandals, and his 'tips' provided us with all sorts of adventures and sheer fun.

Say it aloud, sort of fast, and you'll do Phil a great honor - he was an unreconstructed Ancient Egyptian, and to speak the name of the dead is to make then live again...

Originally Posted by AsenRG

Yeah, that's why it's kinda surprising me. But then I remember all the RPG fans that know more all kinds of trivia about Star Wars or some other movies, and I think I see their logic, too.


Well, I think Bren is like you. I'm lazy.


And I'd like to point out that indie gamers are exactly as likely as anyone to be using recreational drugs. So my theory still stands until disproven.


That happens a lot, I'm sure.


Nothing wrong with that in my book. It just contributes to making me mildly amused when I hear a D&D player criticising "those awful story games that aren't real RPGs"!


Yeah...people that would blow that off might want to look in the experience of, I don't know, Tribe 8. Which had a great metaplot, by all accounts...


Understood, and no more needs be said.


I am asking, whenever I reach a moment I have to ask. Too bad my Tekumel group didn't have time for RPGs during the holidays.


Oh, not just a specific time and location, but the specific time and location they specified?
Yeah, that's unreasonable to ask, unless they were paying you.


You talking about Ron Edwards? Well, he makes some nice games (and some that seem fun, though I have no desire to play them). If it works for him, and gives results, I would assume he has a working idea that he cannot communicate to me.
Or maybe it's just an idea I disagree with, but it still works for him, and I can use the end results - his games - though maybe I'm using them in ways he didn't anticipate. No way to tell until I see the guy in person and play a game with him - which is unlikely to happen.


Fate Core is 308 pages, which is a medium rules book in my opinion. Longer than it needs to be, but the same rules can be explained in 3 pages...some fans did so in order to give handouts to their players. You just lose the rule examples and condense them a whole lot, which might lead to misunderstanding, but it's not like you need the book for reference
Now, something like Pathfinder is triple that, and I suspect it can stop a bullet. What's worse is, any attempt to condense it would require the book for reference. That's huge for me as well.


I guess you don't want to associate with people that would treat you as cattle if you could avoid it. Sounds reasonable.
Also, sounds like if you can buy slaves secretly, it's all good.


I'd contend that it's logical for rich people to avoid those that got rich this generation or the previous!
They would know how their ancestors got rich, and what their kids were like, and might not be looking forward to drinking with that kind of people!


I'd guess it's just Phil, written as "Fil", Barker.

You are a constant source of illumination, as always. I'll have that reply to your e-mail for you this weekend - life has finally slowed down, hereabouts.

You're making sense on all fronts, here, and I'm really enjoying this thread as a result. Thank you!!!

(And yes, the group that wanted me to do a Braunstien for them insisted that I had to do it in their specific date and time, and no, they weren't paying me. Nor were they willing to help load and unload all the stuff, either. Sigh.)

Originally Posted by yosemitemike

Part of the problem is that most of what is said about the subject is just hot air. It's pompous gasbags gassing at one another on the internet to show everyone how terribly clever they and how terribly deep their deep thinking is. It's just a lot of ego stroking and wankery.

Also, It's very jargon heavy but none of the jargon actually means anything. I remember a thread at rpg.net that went on and on for page after page with people arguing about what makes a game a narrative game. It went nowhere because they all used the same jargon but no two of them neat the same thing by it.

In the end, it just doesn't have much to do with how most successful games are written or what most people actually do at the tabletop. They just have very little to do with what most of the people in the hobby are doing.

Gotcha; very informative, as I came into the 'mainstream' of gaming after all this happened. I'd been sitting in my basement, fooling around with dice and lead, and came up for air to find all this stuff.

There are days when I think I shoulda stayed in the cellar...

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

(And yes, the group that wanted me to do a Braunstien for them insisted that I had to do it in their specific date and time, and no, they weren't paying me. Nor were they willing to help load and unload all the stuff, either. Sigh.)

I have met people like this. Their sense of entitlement always astonishes me. They always think that you are the one being unreasonable if you don't cater entirely to them and what they want as well. Luckily, I don't have any players like that these days.

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

There are days when I think I shoulda stayed in the cellar...

This is just internet stuff. Don't take it too seriously. I have never heard anyone utter the terms gamist, narrativist or simulationist in real life.

Originally Posted by yosemitemike

I have met people like this. Their sense of entitlement always astonishes me. They always think that you are the one being unreasonable if you don't cater entirely to them and what they want as well. Luckily, I don't have any players like that these days.

This is just internet stuff. Don't take it too seriously. I have never heard anyone utter the terms gamist, narrativist or simulationist in real life.

Ditto. I may be playing a lot less games, these days, but they are a much more fun time...

Understood. I'm just baffled when people throw them at me.

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

Ditto. I may be playing a lot less games, these days, but they are a much more fun time...

I keep adding more. I am running four different campaigns now and people want me to add a fifth. It looks pretty cool and I wouldn't mind but I have no idea when I would even be able to fit it in.

Originally Posted by Hrugga

I guess you would have to be discreet...depending on the power you weild. You make them "an offer they can't refuse"(understand your limits, Vitu hiKorleone understands). "Finders fees" for getting items to the rightful owners. Magic can make people forget too. Sounds like a great opportunity to get creative. Adventures galore!!!

And of course avoid "Imperial entanglements"... ;0)

H :0)

PS Keep yourself off the High Road, and the Blood Money to a minimum...

Right. Don't be like Peter Venckman in Ghostbusters, where he walks into the hotel and says "Hey, anybody see a ghost?"

You would visit the marketplaces, and you would find a "dealer in antiquities." You would compliment his/her merchandise, the selection, the seller's obvious good taste, etc. After a few minutes the conversation would "just happen" to get to the point where you mention that you might know someone who has found a few trinkets, or the seller would mention they're always eager to "admire other collections."

You get the idea. In this sort of bargaining, USA-style "Here's what I'm selling, what will you pay" forthrightness is not done. It's missing out on the fun; it's not playing the game.

And as Lord Downey said to Mister Teatime, "It...lacked elegance."