Thread: Questioning chirine ba kal

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

It's the act of buying of the slaves that's considered sordid and less then noble. People who buy lots of slaves are often considered 'new rich' and not all that classy; it's sort of assumed that a really proper clan has had slaves for generations, and so their slaves are better then some new ones bought by a newly rich person. So, having slaves is a good thing, while buying them is a bad thing. (Maybe the stork brings them, or something.) I think it has a lot to do with the very low social status of the slavers, more then anything else.

That sounds like a golden opportunity for some enterprising person to set up an agency to discretely acquire slaves and slave clothing for the nouveau riche so that they don't have to be seen doing so themselves.

Disdain for new money has been pretty widespread among the aristocracy for a long time. Aristocrats were bitching about the nouveau riche (though not by that term) in 8th century Greece. New money becomes old money and therefore respectable in a few generations though.

New money is seen as vulgar, ostentatious and low class. Such people are seen to be peasants pretending to nobility. Proper nobles are born to nobility with good noble breeding and a proper noble upbringing not low blood and a peasant upbringing.

Originally Posted by yosemitemike

That sounds like a golden opportunity for some enterprising person to set up an agency to discretely acquire slaves and slave clothing for the nouveau riche so that they don't have to be seen doing so themselves.

Disdain for new money has been pretty widespread among the aristocracy for a long time. Aristocrats were bitching about the nouveau riche (though not by that term) in 8th century Greece. New money becomes old money and therefore respectable in a few generations though.

New money is seen as vulgar, ostentatious and low class. Such people are seen to be peasants pretending to nobility. Proper nobles are born to nobility with good noble breeding and a proper noble upbringing not low blood and a peasant upbringing.

Agreed. The old Bednjallan clans look down on the old Engsvanyali clans, who look down on the modern Tsolyani clans. The Vriddi look down on everybody, including the Tlakotani, which is why the Imperium turns Fasiltum into a parking lot every few generations.

Originally Posted by Hrugga

Okay, moving right along...I've just returned from the underworld with some treasures from the Latter Days. I bring my finds to my temple to see what I have. After being shown, they aren't very interested, nor is my clan. How would I go about selling what I do not want?

Now if I happened to be the ignoble sort, and I just want to make as much coin as possible with the least amount of attention. How might I go about that? How does the black market work?

Also just wondering if there are any organized crime groups moving behind the scenes of the Empire making things happen?

Thanks,

H :0)

Your clan will have in a person from a clan that they deal with in these matters, who will look over your loot and then offer you a fair price for them. They will then turn around and find buyers for the loot, and sell it to them for whatever profit that they can make.

There is a sort of 'black market', but it's mostly to evade Imperial taxes - which is probably the leading sport in Tsolyanu. Keep in mind that anything and everything is available, for a price; what everybody wants to do is keep the Imperium from getting involved and getting their sticky fingers in the money pouch.

As for 'organized crime', keep in mind that a lot of the things we'd call crime these days is considered normal business activity in the Five Empires. (It's much worse in places like Haida Pakalla.) About the only real 'crime' is treason and rebellion, which is sure to get the unwelcome attentions of the Imperium. (There are all sorts of people working behind the scenes, too. The OAL, for example.)

(Murder and violent crimes are a different story; the perpetrators usually are found dead in short order, after their subject's clan finds them.)

Now, 'income tax evasion', 'not paying customs dues', and similar things are what really constitutes the 'black market', just as it did in Colonial America. The Founding Fathers were annoyed with the British East India Company for importing tea and selling it for less then they could make by smuggling it into the colonies. So, in the best 'organized crime' style, they hired dear old Harchar and his "honest seafaring merchants" to dress up in costume and toss the goods into the drink.

There is very little traffic in 'ordinary hot goods'; thieves certainly do exist, but there aren't any 'Thieves' Guilds' in the Five Empires. (Some would say that they are called 'tax collectors', however.) If, say, you wanted something stolen, you'd contact the clan that handles such things; same thing with smuggling. If you want something done - as the Russians say, "on the left" - then you contact the clans that handles such things in your town. The best place to start looking for them is always the Market Police or Customs and Excise officers. They'll put you in touch with who you need to speak to - for a small fee, of course. The smuggler clan will then make sure that they get a donation to their old age, pension, and retirement funds, and everybody is happy.

Avanthar might get cranky, but, well, that's the way things work. As an Imperial Governor, I had several occasions where I made sure to look the other way, as it was the only way to keep the Imperium running. As long as people kept it down to the customary levels, and nobody got hurt or any riots or rebellions got started, things were fine. When people got stupid, that's when I'd have to pay them a little visit. My little galley's crew are all 'retired' smugglers, for example, and I make sure to 'suggest' to the Customs and Excise officers that they really don't need to look in the luggage bins. (Rubs thumb and forefinger together, in the ancient gesture.)

What? Arrest Harchar and his merry crew? Are you nuts? Think of all that paperwork!!!

Does this help?

Originally Posted by Greentongue

Now it so happens that these items are notable and previously owned.
How do I avoid the living owners from find out until after I've sold them OR get them to give me a worthwhile reward for "returning" them?
=

I guess you would have to be discreet...depending on the power you weild. You make them "an offer they can't refuse"(understand your limits, Vitu hiKorleone understands). "Finders fees" for getting items to the rightful owners. Magic can make people forget too. Sounds like a great opportunity to get creative. Adventures galore!!!

And of course avoid "Imperial entanglements"... ;0)

H :0)

PS Keep yourself off the High Road, and the Blood Money to a minimum...

Originally Posted by Greentongue

Now it so happens that these items are notable and previously owned.
How do I avoid the living owners from find out until after I've sold them OR get them to give me a worthwhile reward for "returning" them?
=

Oh! Great question! There's actual legal precedent on this, from a court case we once heard from Dave Morris.

First off, unless the owners saw you lift the stuff, they aren't going to know. There is no 'mass media' or 'social media', so unless you tell them it's going to be kept quiet in your clan house. Unless somebody bribes somebody, but you can watch out for that. Unless you have announcements made in the public squares, it's highly unlikely anybody will ever find out. Especially if you don't tell any one.

The Engsvanyali legal precedent, "The Doctrine of the Present Hand", is very clear on this; if you got it in the Underworld, then it's yours. "Finders' Keepers, Losers' Weepers", as a big-name Tsolyani scholar (Firu ba Yeker, actually) once said to me. (Above ground, where the Great Concordat holds sway, it's theft, and you may be in for a lot of trouble. Anyway...) The custom, if you happen to know the owner, is to have your clan make an approach to the owner's clan. "Say, my nephew happened to be in the Underworld, and he thinks he's found something belonging to your cousin."

Negotiations ensue. You'll get a fair price, a 'finders' fee', and expenses. They will get their stuff back, and a severe talking to about losing valuable clan property. If they decline to buy their stuff back, then you are at liberty to sell the items on the open market - they had their chance, and passed it up.

Originally Posted by Hrugga

Yes. It helps. If you could expand on which clans historically deal in these kinds of matters...Thanks.

H :0)

Right. I'll have to look this up - I usually don't deal with them, myself. It varies from city to city, too. Both the Sourcebook and the Butrus Gazetteer have these lists, too. Back as soon as I can.

Originally Posted by Hrugga

I guess you would have to be discreet...depending on the power you weild. You make them "an offer they can't refuse"(understand your limits, Vitu hiKorleone understands). "Finders fees" for getting items to the rightful owners. Magic can make people forget too. Sounds like a great opportunity to get creative. Adventures galore!!!

And of course avoid "Imperial entanglements"... ;0)

H :0)

PS Keep yourself off the High Road, and the Blood Money to a minimum...

Precisely! That's the spirit! See - you too can 'get' Tekumel!