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Thread: Questioning chirine ba kal

  1. #1531
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greentongue View Post
    Another example of where that can lead.
    http://podiobooks.com/title/trader-t...quarter-share/

    Nathan Lowell started by telling a story the old fashioned way (audio).
    Then when there was interest generated from that, he converted the stories into books.

    A good Storyteller is a wonderful find, even if it takes a little practice to get this "new media" stuff to come out the way they want.

    With a good speaking voice, you could actually "tell" your stories.
    =
    Well, you'd have to listen to my YouTube videos to see if I have a decent speaking voice.

    We have thought about an audio book version of the thing. I am very lucky, in that I have friends who are some really incredible voice-over artists; if I do an audio version, I'll be having them do the voices - it'll sound a lot better with these professionals doing it!

  2. #1532
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gronan of Simmerya View Post
    On the other hand, it was the whole game, not just the "Players' Handbook" for $35.

    The original WEG Star Wars game first edition was also a marvel of brevity.

    Honestly, more than price these days I'm likely to get turned off by page count. I don't WANT a game that's multiples of fucking 350 page books.
    I'd agree with that. A friend brought over his copy of FATE to run a game here, and I nearly fainted at the sheer size of the thing. And what startled me was how much of the core book was devoted to explaining what I had thought were very basic and fundamental information about what a role-playing game was and how it's played. Kind of unsettling, actually...

  3. #1533
    Senior Member Hrugga's Avatar
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    I've been thinking about clans again. Just wondering what features a clanhouse would have. For example, any self respecting clan in Jakalla has...a garden, bathing pool, library, exercise hall. How this differs from low status to high status clans? Also what kinds of servants can be found toiling away. And as far as slaves go in general, are they more personal, or can they serve/belong to the clan as well? So back to business Great Lord. Many thanks in advance.

    I have some more questions, but this is good for starters...

    H :0)

  4. #1534
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hrugga View Post
    I've been thinking about clans again. Just wondering what features a clanhouse would have. For example, any self respecting clan in Jakalla has...a garden, bathing pool, library, exercise hall. How this differs from low status to high status clans? Also what kinds of servants can be found toiling away. And as far as slaves go in general, are they more personal, or can they serve/belong to the clan as well? So back to business Great Lord. Many thanks in advance.

    I have some more questions, but this is good for starters...

    H :0)
    Great question! Let's have a go at it!

    Yes, a good medium to high clan will have all the features you mentioned. The 'clan house' is often a series of buildings - a complex of halls, dormitories, and service facilities. For an example of this, may I suggest a place that Phil mentioned he'd visited: Padmanabhapuram Palace. Do a Google search, and you'll find all sorts of useful information on this wonderful complex. Lower - and usually poorer - clans will have a lot less of anything, but will still have housing and service buildings in a much smaller compound. Normally, all of these compounds are walled, with a 'formal' gate at the front - the side facing the main street that the clan house is on - and service entrances at the rear, off of the smaller 'back streets'.

    The wealthier the clan, the better and more 'swanky' (Phil's word) the place will be. The reverse is true, of course. Note that this is not connected with status - while normally, higher status clans will also be more wealthy, there are examples of relatively poor clans also being of very high status - the Clan of the Striding Incantation, the very small and very secretive clan of puppeteers, has small but decent clan houses - often just a building or two - but almost absurdly high status; they have no political power, but very, very great prestige. (Having them perform at your party is considered to be a huge social coup!)

    So, facility-wise, you'll find everything you'd expect in an Edwardian great house or in a large hotel all the way on down to a set of shacks in the bad part of town. It all depends on the money, and on the age and status.

    Servant-wise, may I suggest a wonderful little book on the subject? Have a look at: "The Duties of Servants: A Practical Guide to the Routine of Domestic Service", by Jan Barnes. This is an Edwardian guide to the subject, and very useful to the GM. Think "Downton Abbey"; there are a lot of servants running around the clan house, keeping the place going and the residents more-or-less happy. You'll have maids, porters, bearers, cooks, stable men, gardeners, and everything else that a wealthy clan will be able to have. A lot of the time, the 'servants' will also be members of their own clans, and the two (or more) clans have been allies for generations. Sea Blue, for example, will have Turning Wheel bearers and carters, and this is true for other clans as well.

    The Tsolyani thrive on these kinds of relationships; it's all about connection and tradition. One certainly can hire personal servants, but the clan will be a bit scandalized and their allied clans will be a bit insulted; you will hear about it, from your chamberlain in your quarters: "My Lord, my family has been drawing your bath for twelve generations; perhaps you could find a place in your household for my nephew?" and so on. A 'hired' servant faces a number of difficulties when trying to 'fit in' to an established household, and needs to tread carefully so as not to upset people. I should note that a personally-hired servant will have to be paid for personally; the clan will not help. If the servant is 'hired' through the clan's alliances, then there's a very good chance that the clan will provide a small stipend to help pay the servant's wages.

    Servants are not slaves; slaves are not all that common, at the higher levels of society, in anything except exotic or menial jobs. It's like a pyramid; the vast majority of slaves are owned by the Imperium, the Temples, or the clans, and are pretty much unskilled and unpaid labor on farms, building sites, or other such things. Slaves in clan houses, are more high-status - as much as a slave can be - and are usually treated much better then the vast majority of slaves. You can find them in just about any position in the clan house, from garden sweepers to cooks to valets. The clan's slaves, whose families may have been in the clan's ownership for generations, will occupy the better positions, while slaves owned personally will normally be in either personal attendance or in very low-status positions. Like with hired servants, they will need to be diplomatic in their relationships with the established staff of the clan house.

    As is mentioned in The Sourcebook, buying slaves is not considered to be a 'socially proper' affair. Slavers are pretty much considered to be the lowest of the low, and very - very, very! - low class and low status. Owning slaves is considered to show off one's wealth, just like fine clothes.

    Does this help? Am I getting you what you're looking for?

  5. #1535
    Senior Member Hrugga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chirine ba kal View Post
    Great question! Let's have a go at it!

    Yes, a good medium to high clan will have all the features you mentioned. The 'clan house' is often a series of buildings - a complex of halls, dormitories, and service facilities. For an example of this, may I suggest a place that Phil mentioned he'd visited: Padmanabhapuram Palace. Do a Google search, and you'll find all sorts of useful information on this wonderful complex. Lower - and usually poorer - clans will have a lot less of anything, but will still have housing and service buildings in a much smaller compound. Normally, all of these compounds are walled, with a 'formal' gate at the front - the side facing the main street that the clan house is on - and service entrances at the rear, off of the smaller 'back streets'.

    The wealthier the clan, the better and more 'swanky' (Phil's word) the place will be. The reverse is true, of course. Note that this is not connected with status - while normally, higher status clans will also be more wealthy, there are examples of relatively poor clans also being of very high status - the Clan of the Striding Incantation, the very small and very secretive clan of puppeteers, has small but decent clan houses - often just a building or two - but almost absurdly high status; they have no political power, but very, very great prestige. (Having them perform at your party is considered to be a huge social coup!)

    So, facility-wise, you'll find everything you'd expect in an Edwardian great house or in a large hotel all the way on down to a set of shacks in the bad part of town. It all depends on the money, and on the age and status.

    Servant-wise, may I suggest a wonderful little book on the subject? Have a look at: "The Duties of Servants: A Practical Guide to the Routine of Domestic Service", by Jan Barnes. This is an Edwardian guide to the subject, and very useful to the GM. Think "Downton Abbey"; there are a lot of servants running around the clan house, keeping the place going and the residents more-or-less happy. You'll have maids, porters, bearers, cooks, stable men, gardeners, and everything else that a wealthy clan will be able to have. A lot of the time, the 'servants' will also be members of their own clans, and the two (or more) clans have been allies for generations. Sea Blue, for example, will have Turning Wheel bearers and carters, and this is true for other clans as well.

    The Tsolyani thrive on these kinds of relationships; it's all about connection and tradition. One certainly can hire personal servants, but the clan will be a bit scandalized and their allied clans will be a bit insulted; you will hear about it, from your chamberlain in your quarters: "My Lord, my family has been drawing your bath for twelve generations; perhaps you could find a place in your household for my nephew?" and so on. A 'hired' servant faces a number of difficulties when trying to 'fit in' to an established household, and needs to tread carefully so as not to upset people. I should note that a personally-hired servant will have to be paid for personally; the clan will not help. If the servant is 'hired' through the clan's alliances, then there's a very good chance that the clan will provide a small stipend to help pay the servant's wages.

    Servants are not slaves; slaves are not all that common, at the higher levels of society, in anything except exotic or menial jobs. It's like a pyramid; the vast majority of slaves are owned by the Imperium, the Temples, or the clans, and are pretty much unskilled and unpaid labor on farms, building sites, or other such things. Slaves in clan houses, are more high-status - as much as a slave can be - and are usually treated much better then the vast majority of slaves. You can find them in just about any position in the clan house, from garden sweepers to cooks to valets. The clan's slaves, whose families may have been in the clan's ownership for generations, will occupy the better positions, while slaves owned personally will normally be in either personal attendance or in very low-status positions. Like with hired servants, they will need to be diplomatic in their relationships with the established staff of the clan house.

    As is mentioned in The Sourcebook, buying slaves is not considered to be a 'socially proper' affair. Slavers are pretty much considered to be the lowest of the low, and very - very, very! - low class and low status. Owning slaves is considered to show off one's wealth, just like fine clothes.

    Does this help? Am I getting you what you're looking for?
    Great, thank you. As far as the clan making decisions, is it by a group of elders or is there one prominent member who calls the shots, or a combination of both?

    Could you please expand on slavery a bit more? Since it has such a stigma attached with it, if for example I wanted to purchase slaves, I would send servants to the market to do so? Or go through a third party(a kind of broker)?

    The ways of becoming a slave? Being born into it, punishment, captured durning war,...any other ways?

    I would think that there are many Kaitars to be had trading slaves. Do the well to do invest discretely, or how might they be involved in it?

    Thanks,

    H :0)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hrugga View Post
    Great, thank you. As far as the clan making decisions, is it by a group of elders or is there one prominent member who calls the shots, or a combination of both?

    Could you please expand on slavery a bit more? Since it has such a stigma attached with it, if for example I wanted to purchase slaves, I would send servants to the market to do so? Or go through a third party(a kind of broker)?

    The ways of becoming a slave? Being born into it, punishment, captured durning war,...any other ways?

    I would think that there are many Kaitars to be had trading slaves. Do the well to do invest discretely, or how might they be involved in it?
    You're welcome! Let me try to answer your questions in order, if I may...

    Both; it varies to what degree amongst clans and 'chapters' in the various locations, but there's usually a 'council of elders' who make decisions - and this is normally led by one or more important members of the clan who make all of the executive decisions. Think 'legislature' confirming 'executive. The temples also work much the same way, with the senior officials making the day to day decisions, and those decisions reviewed and confirmed (or not) by the temple's 'council of prelates'.

    Buying slaves. Well, you'd never socialize with a slaver; they do not get invited to anyone's parties. One would not normally send 'servants' to buy a slave; your clan would have a designated 'official' who would do this, and would accompany you if you were doing the buying yourself. This would be for the purchase of 'exotics', where there are private 'showings of the merchandise', and are very strictly formal - see also The Sourcebook on how these are run. Unskilled slaves are simply bought by the clan's 'over-seer', as a 'bulk commodity'. I'm not aware of any formal 'brokers', but you do see 'friend of a friend' sorts of things. Slavers don't publicaly advertise; they pass the word quietly to the people that they know, who pas it along to interested parties.

    Yes, to all three. People are condemned to slavery for debt, and not for 'crimes'; criminals are usually simply executed, to put a very permanent stop to their careers. Ordinary people who get captured as a result of wars or rebellions are treated as for people born or condemned into slavery. Captured soldiers, unless exchanged, are either sacrificed or maimed so they can't use weapons; having trained warriors as slaves is pretty risky, as Gary Rudolph found out when he was the fief-holder in Ferenara. The rebellion that broke out after he armed his slave army was a very nasty one, and took quite a lot of effort to crush. (Mercenaries are a whole different matter, and subject to different rules.)

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    [QUOTE=chirine ba kal;868536]
    Quote Originally Posted by AsenRG View Post
    1) I'm even more amazed now.
    2) I'd say, forgive me for my frankness, that they were focused on the wrong thing.
    3) About 3800 of those visitors included...
    4) They seem fun, I'll grant that.
    5) I guess so. Thinking of it, the group has changed completely. Maybe I should give some suggestions to the current roaster of players.

    /QUOTE]

    a. Yes, and so was I. All day Friday, and we all watched in stricken awe as the three of them did everything but bash the passing gamers over the hard to get their attention. It was one of the most surreal moments in my oft-times surreal life. I simply couldn't get my head around the situation. Three pretty young ladies in wisps of lame, vs. a dice simulator? Really?

    b. I think you're right, but these two guys were gamers, and had a gamer's focus. Air Force people call it things like 'target fixation' and 'going head down in the cockpit', and these guys - as well as the passing gamers - had it in bucket loads. Arneson thought that it was hilarious that once he was standing at their booth, they got all sorts of traffic - Dave kept chortling about him being 'prettier' and 'more attractive' for two days, and kept on laughing about the situation for months.

    c. Agreed!

    d. Oh, they were; we had a lot of laughs all the rest of the weekend, we had a lot of fun doing some 'role-playing' at the booth. It was a very good time, and the icing on the cake was the Adventure Games guys being totally unable to figure out why my Tekumel merchandise was screaming off the table at supersonic speeds.

    e. Well, play what you want to, and how you want to - it's all about you and your friends having fun!
    A through D: Indeed.
    E: I always do. I just might try and see whether the new group would like some miniatures.
    The nice part is that either result would work for me.


    "Lord Chirine, you -"
    "- really should introduce us -"
    "- to your friend, because -"
    "- you're telling him -"
    "- our story!"

    Ah. They're right, as usual. "Lord Asen, may I introduce Menwe, Sitre, and Ten'er? Ladies, Lord Asen, of whom I have spoken..."

    (in chorus) "Hello, Lord Asen!" [Well, there are three of them...]
    Ah, sounds mildly familiar!

    And yes, I have loved the figures from Dark Fable - after some three decades, I finally have all of the 'palace people' that we met in our adventure, and I can put faces (albeit 28mm ones) to all of these people. One of the real joys of gaming with Phil was watching him playing the NPCs; he could, and did, have conversations amongst them, doing all the parts by himself, and it left you sitting there in astonishment. He really was good - and it was very obvious that quite a few of the people that we'd meet were real people he'd met on his travels. It was part of the wonder...
    I can and do conversations between NPCs. It's one of my favourite ways to drop hints, and most GMs I know are using it to a degree, too.

    Fun fact: up until 3 years ago, I had no idea I'm doing a different voice for every NPC, or that I'm doing voices, at all. I was reading the people that spoke about troubles doing voices, and was scratching my head. "Why would anyone do that? I don't need to do it at all..."
    And it turned out, I've been doing it all along (at least an year and a half previously - that's how long said players have been at my table, so they couldn't confirm about earlier). It was a surprise!

    Now, doing the voices for the trio might be a challenge...

    Quote Originally Posted by chirine ba kal View Post
    Right. First, there will be a short rant that you should feel free to ignore, and then I'll talk about how I set up a game like this.

    [Rant follows.]
    Well, yes, it is the second Saturday of the month, and normally we'd have played out this second half of the adventure. However, the players were all busy, and I doubt we'll be back to this game until January. It's been very difficult, over the past couple of years, to be able to get people together for gaming any any sort of regular basis; people have lives, and things like school do get in the way. It has not helped the group that we took a lot of hassle from various organizations, legal and otherwise, trying to get control of what's in my head. My memories (and my collections) are regarded by some people as 'collectable' and 'valuable as investments', and my book also seems to be seen as 'the pot of gold at the end of the Tekumel rainbow' for anyone who can get control of the property. All of this has had a very negative effect on my younger players, who all have better (and more fun!) things to do with their time then be served legal papers when gaming here at the house by the very people - the 'senior gamers, also called "Barker's Own", by some Tekumel fans - that they looked up to and respected. It's the same sort of mindless and ultimately pointless 'politics around the Petal Throne' that has dogged Tekumel for years.

    To summarize thirty-some years in a nutshell, there are people out there who firmly believe that it's better to have no Tekumel then a Tekumel that's outside their control. I'm sick and tired of the feuding factions all kicking me, just 'cause "Chirine has all the good stuff, and we want it for ourselves." It's gotten old.
    [Rant ends. Thank you for your patience. ]

    Okay; back to the game. In this case, I made sure to have two possible entrances to the presumed Underworld on the table. This will be a true three-dimensional game, as you can go up inside the pyramid - it has four levels and does come apart for access - as well as the below-ground level. In past games, the creatures of the Underworld have managed to come up one of the unguarded shafts and surprise the players. It's much more entertaining, they way.

    I like to make some quick sketches of the levels, and then I'll lay them out on the table with my set of modular Underworld tiles; I use wooden blocks (from IKEA, actually) to do walls, as these allow for better access and visibility for the players. I like to steal my floor plans from historical sources, either something that Phil did or something that he liked - I use Ancient Egyptian tomb plans a lot, as this was something that Phil did. Generally, I design 'one-off' complexes like this so that the closer and closer one gets to the center, the richer the rewards - and the more dangerous and risky the adventure. The 'gaming well' of my table is 48" x 48", and this allows for some pretty extensive Underworlds; you might want to have a look at the videos I have on You Tube of a similar game.

    Generally, I don't use random tables to stock the Underworld. I think about what the rooms would be used for, in their historical contexts both in the real world and in Phil's; his Jakalla Underworld is full of closets and storeroom for the use of the people who live and work down there. I do the same thing; I then stock the rooms with all sorts of goodies, using my collection of 'detail' stuff. Barrels, weapons racks, thrones, statues, you name it - I got it. I also always make sure to make notes and take photos of whatever I've built, so that if we ever need to go back there, I can recreate the entire underworld as need be.

    Next, I work up who's already there; no Hlutrgu, as you would really not be finding them in much of any situation other then along their nasty swamplands. However, this is not an issue, as Tekumel is very well-stocked with Dire Perils, and I have a lot of them on the shelves. Since this is a tomb complex, I would expect to find a lot of Undead, so out come the boxes of Undead and I play the role of the Ancient High Priest who originally stocked the place up with hordes of Tomb guardians. Each group is given a specific set of instructions, unless there will be a 'live' player to run them - this is a great job to give guests and visitors! - and they will act as per those instructions. This is as per Phil's practice; he used to note that the Undead are not the smartest beings around, and usually have to be directed by a live intelligence for maximum havoc. Luckily for me, I have some of those, too.

    I can't say that I work all this out by whim; I go from what I saw and encountered in Phil's campaign, and his usual practices when he did stuff like this. I do keep careful notes, though, and I refer to these when the players find something. I should also note that the players can't see into anything unless they actually look through the doorway or go into a room; I use black paper to cover the rooms until they do this.

    And I should also say that one does not need miniatures for all this; big sheets of paper, or the modern battle mats, will work just as well. Once the play starts, it pretty much runs itself, and all I do is facilitate what the players are doing.

    Does this help?
    That's just terrible. I'm sorry to read you were subjected to so much pressure.
    And, might I add, for no reason at all. The spirit is out of the bottle, has been so since EPT was published.

    Back to the game: If you were working that out during the game, just before the players reach the destination, that's what I'd call "Lazy GMing".
    I must admit that I've recently warmed up to random tables. I mostly use those in Atomic Highway - a post-apocalyptic game - for "stuff that's just here for no particular reason". Of course, players are bound to find some use even for junk from time to time...
    And Tekumel is a post-apocalyptic Swords and Planet setting. That's what the Eyes are, after all: remains from an ancient civilisation. It's just that the apocalypse was long enough ago most people don't take it as an apocalypse any longer...

    Quote Originally Posted by chirine ba kal View Post
    This is a continuation of the previous post, but I'd like to step back for a moment and talk gaming philosophy, as it was practiced back in the 'pre-school' days. (I like to think of myself as a 'pre-school gamer'.)

    It was the custom, back then, for the GM/referee to be the one to design and stock the particular scenario; a lot of this may have been because it was also usually the person running the game was also the one hosting it at their house or at the shop/club. The GM would draw up all the rooms or buildings, then devise what was in them. The players, in their exploration of the venue, would then find or not find things, and run into whatever Dire Perils had been set in place for them to find.

    We played - and we're talking in my games and in Phil's - what would be called 'sandbox play' these days; the players made their own adventures, and it was up to the GM to stay ahead of them. It was more or less what Gronan's described as 'Free Kriegspiel', where the GM/referee ran things and was a very neutral party - my job is as a GM is to facilitate the players' adventure, and to let them do their thing. This does have some perils for the GM; a very active group can get way ahead of you, and a very passive group can bore you to tears. I've had both, over the years, and I tend to select my home gamers for the former; staying ahead of them is just as much for for me, really!

    I, as GM, always knew what was in the chest in the room. It was up to the players to look in it or not, as they chose; it wasn't my issue. It was also my job to maintain the 'meta-campaign', the larger world-setting that the players moved about in and lived in as members of their society; I did all the backstage stuff, as we've mentioned in this thread, based on all the parameters that Phil had set out in his works. The players did what they wanted to, and had to deal with the consequences.
    Check. That's what I had to re-invent (and then people on some other forums - Gronan, yourself, and Bren very much included! - helped me to fine-tune it).
    Also, having done this helps you to really have a laugh while reading Ancient Wargaming...

    I've been told that this is not what's been described to me as "true player character agency", and that I'm "too railroady"; I've even been accused of being a "story gamer" because of the meta game running in the background. I'm both baffled an confused by all this, especially when people tell me that my gaming is not 'proper RPG play'. Well, okay, but this is what we did, back in the day.
    OK, the guy who accused you of railroading is smoking something really strong. I'm curious where he finds these halucinogens - I assume FBI would be curious as well.
    The one with "true player agency" probably just means "you don't allow players narrative control, how could you..." seen that a couple times.
    The one who accused you of being a story gamer is just funny. Your game is only as much a story game as OD&D and EPT are story games!
    And, might I add, OD&D is (almost) a story game. A story game puts you in a given framework and makes sure that actions are processed according to a given set of cinematic laws (HP are that, when treated as something that only exists to allow a cool cinematic duel at the end of the movie - not the best mechanic for that goal, might I add, but it works).
    Then, since the behaviour of characters in this kind of movies, novels or whatever is actually optimal, it emerges naturally.
    Then the GM can just start setting up situations where you have to pick what you're going to fight for, and how much you're going to risk for any given value.


    It kind of makes me want to post a warning sign on the door, or something.
    Do it!
    "Warning: Games Here Don't Conform To Theory Expectations!"
    It should give some people fits, so it's worth it.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Johansen View Post
    As to the legal stuff, I hope there's a special place in hell for people who having no capacity to create anything of worth themselves grasp hold of someone else's intellectual property and claim it for their own. I'm not talking about work for hire in particular. But as David Sims said of doing work for hire "They will never pay you more than the lawyers will cost them."
    I hope you're right on the hell part.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bren View Post
    That's a battle they've already lost. People can run Tekumel based on what is already out there in the wild.

    What the pin-headed, controlling, nit wits can do is limit what resources are easily made available and limit the number of people who are exposed to the cool things its creator invented. It's tragic that they won't let the information out there so that Phil's legacy can get the widest possible exposure.
    Yes.
    I can run Tekumel on EPT alone. I've got EPT, Bethorm, and Swords and Glory 1: more than I'd need any time soon. I'd keep buying, because I like the setting, not because I need it.
    And the slower the release, the more they risk "the metaplot effect": when you give GMs information slower than their campaigns need it, often some people would have come up with an alternative explanation!
    And from that moment on, this explanation is the campaign's canon. If your info contradicts what is going on in my campaign, does anyone expect me to replay the last 15 sessions? Or would you bet on me re-evaluating whether I need more of your information?
    Hint, it's going to be the latter.

    So, as cyberpunk stories say (and I'm of the opinion that we're living in a cyberpunk world): Information Wants To Be Free!
    The Street Finds Its Own Use For Things.
    The latter includes deciding that what you're offering is useless - possibly due to you not releasing the info.

    Quote Originally Posted by chirine ba kal View Post
    Understood. look at it from the point of the dozen twenty-something college students and high-school students I had in my game group. One would think that one would like to encourage young people to get into the hobby in general, and to learn about and enjoy Tekumel in particular. They had a lot of fun in Phil's world, and picked up on how it worked a while lot faster then you and I did - they have a lot more cross cultural knowledge then we did at their age, and were able to 'get' Tekumel very quickly and easily.

    Sadly, the 'older and more experienced' people saw them as both a resource to be shamelessly exploited, and as a threat to their own position and prestige. These kids busted their butts to make Phil's memorial event happen, to cite just one example, and got tromped on as a result. What makes it even sadder were the contributions they were making to Tekumel as a whole - several of the new miniatures were their creations, after running into the creatures in our games.

    And the various factions are still at it; too. I was taken out for breakfast last Sunday, my 59th birthday, by one of them as they wanted to 'kiss and make up' with me for all their legal threats - yes these are the same folks who cost me $800 in legal fees to get rid of them. I went, mostly because several of them had been friends for some thirty years.

    Five hours later - but really good steak and eggs - I had gotten nothing from them besides all sorts of pressure to let them have my work and my book. No apologies, no excuses, no nothing; not even any remorse for the RICO conviction one of them had managed to rack up. (They have a fascinating legal history; the Internet is your friend. And my Missus is the Queen of the Internet.) They gave me the same old same old that they had given me the last time around, and I simply smiled sweetly and ate my breakfast. (Eggs over hard, please.) And with that, I got up, and several thirty-plus year friendships ended in a wet, rainy parking lot in South Minneapolis.

    So it goes.
    Well, you got a nice breakfast out of it. That's more than I'd have expected.
    Sorry if that sounds heartless, but well - anyone who can walk to you and ask you to give over a book that's written as a kind of autobiography is someone I wouldn't expect much from.

    Quote Originally Posted by chirine ba kal View Post
    Agreed. This thread, on this forum, is the only place where I'm active these days. I'll probably get my blog going again, now that I have a more regular work schedule, but I don't know how often I'll be posting or what about.
    I'm suddenly very glad that I got fed up with another forum's unwritten and written rules and registered on this site. This thread has been actually useful for my own games - a rarity, might I add!

    I've given up on 'outreach' to local gamers; I've been trying for several years to let people know about what I do, like the Braunsteins I run, and I have gotten no effective responses. I've been told that I need to be using a popular set of rules, that I need to run my games at specific times at specific locations, and that I need to change what I do so as to be more in step with modern gaming.
    You can discard the rules argument and the "changing what you do" parts. As for specific times and specific locations, I don't even understand that. Don't you have a specific location at your home, and a specific time?

    Well, all right, I can understand all that, but that's not something I can do and still be the gamer that I am, and have been since those hot summer nights in Coffmann Union.

    So, once again, it goes.
    That's the right approach!
    I wish more people were taking it.

    Quote Originally Posted by chirine ba kal View Post
    David, I'm sorry; I did the 'quote thing' wrong. here's my response to you:

    Agreed. My problem has always been that I'm a 'populist', with the exact same attitude that you have. And, as I demonstrated, it does sell the merchandise; I seem to be the only person who ever made decent sales with Tekumel stuff.
    Hmm, what's with this? I've helped organise a local semi-regular "game day" which accepts people new to RPGs as well... right now, it's one of my friends that's running it (he organises it roughly at 2d2-1 months).

    I might actually run Tekumel next time. Or the time after that. I'm still deciding how to set it up, mostly.

    Quote Originally Posted by chirine ba kal View Post
    Hell if I know; this is coming from gamers I've spoken with over the past eight years, and these seem to be popular buzz words and phrases - just like "maintaining the brand identity" in regards to Tekumel publishing gets bandied about. Or like "Gamist"? "Narrativist"? "Simulationist"? for that matter. (Phil was all three, often in the same game session. Just saying.)

    I get this kind of thing from self-identified 'OSR' people, and from equally self-identified 'indie' people. Both ends of the gaming spectrum have also told me that we were also "too loosey-goosey" and "too handwavy" as well, when I describe the way Gary, Dave, and Phil played - heck, for that matter, I've been told that Dave Wesely ran the Braunsteins 'the wrong way'. From what I understand, those old guys didn't 'get' the right way to play, back in the day, and have had to be 'corrected' on their errant ways through the use of "proper interpretation" and "enhanced game mechanics".

    Well, all right, I'm cool with whatever one wants to play in one's own campaign. I play the way I've always played, and I'm not likely to change that anytime soon. There seem to be some people who have an issue with that; sorry, but I am what I am; they can play their games, and I will play mine.
    I think your last paragraph sums it up nicely.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Johansen View Post
    Money changes everything. Sadly properties like Tekumel and Traveller will never achieve that status. They have obsessive fan bases but they don't have the ability to move beyond their niche and there just isn't that much money in that niche. I've always wished Traveller could have reached the heights Warhammer 40000 did. It's much more to my tastes and I believe a more grounded Star Wars with a grittier edge (don't get me started on T5 making psionics into the force) would do well in other media like comics and movies. But even at its peak the roleplaying industry isn't making people rich. I think it's because people don't have the frame of reference to understand how little money a million dollars really is. They don't see the costs when they think of the sales figures. And if the people in control won't let anyone else can make a buck on the property creative people are more likely to follow their own vision than have their work owned and controlled by people who don't have their best interests at heart.

    It's the sad lesson of Jack Kirby's legacy. You can almost single handedly create multimillion dollar properties for people and they'll never love you enough to give you a fair cut.
    Traveller, probably no - though the money from Kickstarters allow for a bit of dough to be made, I believe. But I also happen to believe it's due to the fact that the game is billed as "hard SF", which a lot of people aren't too keen about.

    Tekumel is another matter entirely. I'd expect there to be some resurgence of the genre in 5-10 years. It might yet become popular.
    And I wish good luck to the Tekumel Foundation in contributing to that! I mean, I like the genre, and they're named after one of the best examples of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Johansen View Post
    I really think there's room for the industry to grow these days. I've gotten at least a dozen kids into roleplaying and wargaming in my store, but what it's taken has been a lot of patience and hard work and patience. Mmporgs are a terrible training ground for even D&D. Right now one of those kids is DMing and I'm playing, I always feel that good players are the greater need these days. Everyone has a story to tell and everyone wants to be the star, but what's needed is a passing of the techniques required to survive outside a padded cell, and not just in games but in life.

    Planning, caution, resource management, and problem solving skills are hardly in evidence among these refuges from the land of easy solutions spooned out like pabulum from flickering screens.
    Agreed on MMORPGs, I'm still beating out the last "mmorpg lessons" out of some of my players.
    I would add to the list of bad ideas "encounter levels" in some popular games, though. Some people are so used to it, they'd expect me to run "fair fights that the PCs can win".
    I tell them how, after one of my earliest campaigns concluded, one of the players observed that 100% of the fights in it have started with a surprise round - for one side or for the other...

    Quote Originally Posted by Gronan of Simmerya View Post
    And don't forget, in a game like WoW when a new dungeon or raid comes out, the solution is posted online within a few days. They do not even pretend to teach figuring out what to do, they are all about following directions.

    I know I've told the story of Gary in his last years commenting about how young players at conventions would roll characters, charge headfirst into Greyhawk castle, get wiped out by the kobolds because they knew nothing about positioning or flanks or even looking behind you, and then roll up new characters and to it all over again.

    He never could figure out what was going on, but to anybody who's heard the "Tonight our guild made its fifth attempt to blah blah blah," it makes perfect sense.
    I remember being in an old school game with some presumably experienced gamers, and one of them telling me that "tactics never work in D&D". His reasoning is that when fights start, everyone charges anyway.
    I kept trying to organise shieldwalls with polearms. Things changed when it became evident that this actually worked better.
    That's in a nutshell what I do with my players. If they don't learn tactics, they get beaten by any remotely serious threat. And I tell them so, and even point out mistakes after the session.
    Eventually, they learn.

    Quote Originally Posted by chirine ba kal View Post
    Agreed.

    The famous convention story:
    Player: "What edition of D & D will we be playing in this session?"
    GM: "Hello, I'm Dave Arneson! Nice to meet you!"

    And it works both ways, too; had a guest GM in for a game session in the game room a while back, and it was grim. He'd written murder mystery scenario for Tekumel, which was actually pretty good. He' a huge fan of 4.0, and he'd written the adventure in the form of a series of descriptive pages. He'd read the page, and the players would react to what they'd been read. The catch was that unless and until the players gave the only correct response, the game could not proceed to the next page of the scenario. It was like watching somebody read through a computer program; one of the players actually fell asleep at the table.

    I had to intervene a couple of times, otherwise we'd still be in the basement yet. Unnerving, it was.
    BTW, that's just bad mystery design, according to most people that like mysteries.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Johansen View Post
    One suspicion I have is that glossy hard backs are killing us. I think I've got a pretty good handle on how we got there. With a declining market place manufacturers decided that they needed to wring the maximum dollar value out of each customer. The problem is that after fifteen years of that, the old guard have entire basements full of the things and the new kids see the prices as a serious barrier. It's why Palladium, for all its faults, keeps trucking along. If you're a hungry student, $30 for a complete game looks more appealing than $150 for a three book core set with a dozen $50 supplements.

    Never mind the endless churn of new editions every two or three years at that same price, deliberately incompatible with the previous to prevent any recycling of material.

    Admittedly, the kids at my store are mostly what you'd call disadvantaged or middle lower class or something, the one kid's dad drops a fair bit from time to time but most of them just don't have the money it takes to keep up with console gaming.

    It isn't that I don't like pretty books. But I think we're drowning in them and the sheer number of them drives down the sales figures across the board. I think the OGL actually lights the road ahead here. I think there's too many game systems held by companies that in aggressively defending their IP drive people to go into competition with them instead of supporting them.
    I can confirm, more or less. The three obstacles I have to face when trying to get someone new into RPGs are:
    "What is it?"
    "But this is expensive!" (When it comes up after the session and I'm not in the mood, I answer "it's about two movie tickets, and we just played longer than two movies would be". I mean PDFs, though).
    "Too much reading!" (My answer is usually "right, let me explain you the rules").
    The last two might be in reverse order...

    Quote Originally Posted by chirine ba kal View Post
    Gotcha. I never really understood GNS theory; I thought it felt like 'over-thinking' the subject.
    It might be somewhat guilty of that, indeed. But at least the guy that came up with it was trying to think.
    I suspect he just didn't communicate it all that well, but I'm too lazy to try and find out whether I'm right.

    Quote Originally Posted by chirine ba kal View Post
    I'd agree with that. A friend brought over his copy of FATE to run a game here, and I nearly fainted at the sheer size of the thing. And what startled me was how much of the core book was devoted to explaining what I had thought were very basic and fundamental information about what a role-playing game was and how it's played. Kind of unsettling, actually...
    Interesting - what Fate game was it? And what "basic and fundamental information" you think was being explained?

    Quote Originally Posted by chirine ba kal View Post
    Great question! Let's have a go at it!

    Yes, a good medium to high clan will have all the features you mentioned. The 'clan house' is often a series of buildings - a complex of halls, dormitories, and service facilities. For an example of this, may I suggest a place that Phil mentioned he'd visited: Padmanabhapuram Palace. Do a Google search, and you'll find all sorts of useful information on this wonderful complex. Lower - and usually poorer - clans will have a lot less of anything, but will still have housing and service buildings in a much smaller compound. Normally, all of these compounds are walled, with a 'formal' gate at the front - the side facing the main street that the clan house is on - and service entrances at the rear, off of the smaller 'back streets'.

    The wealthier the clan, the better and more 'swanky' (Phil's word) the place will be. The reverse is true, of course. Note that this is not connected with status - while normally, higher status clans will also be more wealthy, there are examples of relatively poor clans also being of very high status - the Clan of the Striding Incantation, the very small and very secretive clan of puppeteers, has small but decent clan houses - often just a building or two - but almost absurdly high status; they have no political power, but very, very great prestige. (Having them perform at your party is considered to be a huge social coup!)

    So, facility-wise, you'll find everything you'd expect in an Edwardian great house or in a large hotel all the way on down to a set of shacks in the bad part of town. It all depends on the money, and on the age and status.

    Servant-wise, may I suggest a wonderful little book on the subject? Have a look at: "The Duties of Servants: A Practical Guide to the Routine of Domestic Service", by Jan Barnes. This is an Edwardian guide to the subject, and very useful to the GM. Think "Downton Abbey"; there are a lot of servants running around the clan house, keeping the place going and the residents more-or-less happy. You'll have maids, porters, bearers, cooks, stable men, gardeners, and everything else that a wealthy clan will be able to have. A lot of the time, the 'servants' will also be members of their own clans, and the two (or more) clans have been allies for generations. Sea Blue, for example, will have Turning Wheel bearers and carters, and this is true for other clans as well.

    The Tsolyani thrive on these kinds of relationships; it's all about connection and tradition. One certainly can hire personal servants, but the clan will be a bit scandalized and their allied clans will be a bit insulted; you will hear about it, from your chamberlain in your quarters: "My Lord, my family has been drawing your bath for twelve generations; perhaps you could find a place in your household for my nephew?" and so on. A 'hired' servant faces a number of difficulties when trying to 'fit in' to an established household, and needs to tread carefully so as not to upset people. I should note that a personally-hired servant will have to be paid for personally; the clan will not help. If the servant is 'hired' through the clan's alliances, then there's a very good chance that the clan will provide a small stipend to help pay the servant's wages.

    Servants are not slaves; slaves are not all that common, at the higher levels of society, in anything except exotic or menial jobs. It's like a pyramid; the vast majority of slaves are owned by the Imperium, the Temples, or the clans, and are pretty much unskilled and unpaid labor on farms, building sites, or other such things. Slaves in clan houses, are more high-status - as much as a slave can be - and are usually treated much better then the vast majority of slaves. You can find them in just about any position in the clan house, from garden sweepers to cooks to valets. The clan's slaves, whose families may have been in the clan's ownership for generations, will occupy the better positions, while slaves owned personally will normally be in either personal attendance or in very low-status positions. Like with hired servants, they will need to be diplomatic in their relationships with the established staff of the clan house.

    As is mentioned in The Sourcebook, buying slaves is not considered to be a 'socially proper' affair. Slavers are pretty much considered to be the lowest of the low, and very - very, very! - low class and low status. Owning slaves is considered to show off one's wealth, just like fine clothes.

    Does this help? Am I getting you what you're looking for?
    These last two bits in bold actually kinda perplex me. Showing off wealth is almost what Tekumeli high society is about.
    Why is showing off your wealth in another way frowned upon?
    (I'd understand it if it was because Phil wanted to avoid associations with John Norman! But I suspect it's something else and that's something I'm missing).
    "Let me tell you something you already know. The world ain't all sunshine and rainbows. It's a very mean and nasty place, and I don't care how tough you are, it will beat you to your knees and keep you there permanently if you let it. You, me, or nobody is gonna hit as hard as life. But it ain't about how hard you hit. It's about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward; how much you can take and keep moving forward." - Rocky

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    Quote Originally Posted by AsenRG View Post

    That's just terrible. I'm sorry to read you were subjected to so much pressure.
    And, might I add, for no reason at all. The spirit is out of the bottle, has been so since EPT was published.

    Back to the game: If you were working that out during the game, just before the players reach the destination, that's what I'd call "Lazy GMing".

    OK, the guy who accused you of railroading is smoking something really strong. I'm curious where he finds these halucinogens - I assume FBI would be curious as well.
    The one with "true player agency" probably just means "you don't allow players narrative control, how could you..." seen that a couple times.
    The one who accused you of being a story gamer is just funny. Your game is only as much a story game as OD&D and EPT are story games!
    And, might I add, OD&D is (almost) a story game. A story game puts you in a given framework and makes sure that actions are processed according to a given set of cinematic laws (HP are that, when treated as something that only exists to allow a cool cinematic duel at the end of the movie - not the best mechanic for that goal, might I add, but it works).
    Then, since the behaviour of characters in this kind of movies, novels or whatever is actually optimal, it emerges naturally.
    Then the GM can just start setting up situations where you have to pick what you're going to fight for, and how much you're going to risk for any given value.

    Do it!
    "Warning: Games Here Don't Conform To Theory Expectations!"
    It should give some people fits, so it's worth it.

    Yes.
    I can run Tekumel on EPT alone. I've got EPT, Bethorm, and Swords and Glory 1: more than I'd need any time soon. I'd keep buying, because I like the setting, not because I need it.
    And the slower the release, the more they risk "the metaplot effect": when you give GMs information slower than their campaigns need it, often some people would have come up with an alternative explanation!
    And from that moment on, this explanation is the campaign's canon. If your info contradicts what is going on in my campaign, does anyone expect me to replay the last 15 sessions? Or would you bet on me re-evaluating whether I need more of your information?
    Hint, it's going to be the latter.

    So, as cyberpunk stories say (and I'm of the opinion that we're living in a cyberpunk world): Information Wants To Be Free!
    The Street Finds Its Own Use For Things.
    The latter includes deciding that what you're offering is useless - possibly due to you not releasing the info.


    Well, you got a nice breakfast out of it. That's more than I'd have expected.
    Sorry if that sounds heartless, but well - anyone who can walk to you and ask you to give over a book that's written as a kind of autobiography is someone I wouldn't expect much from.


    I'm suddenly very glad that I got fed up with another forum's unwritten and written rules and registered on this site. This thread has been actually useful for my own games - a rarity, might I add!


    You can discard the rules argument and the "changing what you do" parts. As for specific times and specific locations, I don't even understand that. Don't you have a specific location at your home, and a specific time?

    That's the right approach!
    I wish more people were taking it.

    Hmm, what's with this? I've helped organise a local semi-regular "game day" which accepts people new to RPGs as well... right now, it's one of my friends that's running it (he organises it roughly at 2d2-1 months).

    I might actually run Tekumel next time. Or the time after that. I'm still deciding how to set it up, mostly.

    I think your last paragraph sums it up nicely.


    Traveller, probably no - though the money from Kickstarters allow for a bit of dough to be made, I believe. But I also happen to believe it's due to the fact that the game is billed as "hard SF", which a lot of people aren't too keen about.
    Tekumel is another matter entirely. I'd expect there to be some resurgence of the genre in 5-10 years. It might yet become popular.
    And I wish good luck to the Tekumel Foundation in contributing to that! I mean, I like the genre, and they're named after one of the best examples of it.

    BTW, that's just bad mystery design, according to most people that like mysteries.

    Interesting - what Fate game was it? And what "basic and fundamental information" you think was being explained?

    These last two bits in bold actually kinda perplex me. Showing off wealth is almost what Tekumeli high society is about.
    Why is showing off your wealth in another way frowned upon?
    (I'd understand it if it was because Phil wanted to avoid associations with John Norman! But I suspect it's something else and that's something I'm missing).
    Right - let me try this in sections...

    1. Pressure - The problem is that, over the years, I've been the lynchpin of getting Tekumel out to the world. These factions have the idea that if only they - and they alone - can get control of me, I'll continue to produce for them and they can have all the money and prestige - but without the work.
    And yes, once EPT was published, this became nonsense. In the summer of 1975, to be exact.

    2. 'Lazy GMing' - Nope, I don't work this out during the game. I do everything in advance, and have it all on note cards. I keep the note cards handy, but with my memory I usually don't need them.

    3. Railroading - this is based on an assumption; this came from a local 'indie' gamer, who's of the opinion that any game that predates the OSR has got to be 'railroady' and without 'full player agency'. I've noticed that a lot of OSR and indie people have a lot of assumptions about the way I game, and won't game with me based on those assumptions. And, then, as you might expect, if they actually do watch a game I run, then they want to play...

    And your points about OD&D being almost a story game are right on. At least, that's the way I saw it being played.

    4. Information release - Yep. I said the same thing, many times over the years, and got blown off. Which is why we are where we are today.

    5. Breakfast - I expected nothing, got nothing, and now we're done with them. And they still can't figure out why.

    6. Usefullness - I try; keep asking questions!

    7. Outreach - Well, I was told that I needed to move everything to the local game shop for the game, to suit their schedule. I pointed out that this was going to be a pretty big effort, and they looked at me blankly. So, no Braunstein for them.

    8. Game design - Yeah, I thought so to, but this 'flowchart' approach is the way this person does all of his games. It's very ponderous, and take forever to get anywhere on the flowchart.

    9. FATE - Basic FATE, or whatever the core rules are called. Huge rules book, I thought.

    10. Buying slaves / owning slaves - You are right; owning slaves is considered to be a display of wealth and status. It's the act of buying of the slaves that's considered sordid and less then noble. People who buy lots of slaves are often considered 'new rich' and not all that classy; it's sort of assumed that a really proper clan has had slaves for generations, and so their slaves are better then some new ones bought by a newly rich person. So, having slaves is a good thing, while buying them is a bad thing. (Maybe the stork brings them, or something.) I think it has a lot to do with the very low social status of the slavers, more then anything else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chirine ba kal View Post

    10. Buying slaves / owning slaves - You are right; owning slaves is considered to be a display of wealth and status. It's the act of buying of the slaves that's considered sordid and less then noble. People who buy lots of slaves are often considered 'new rich' and not all that classy; it's sort of assumed that a really proper clan has had slaves for generations, and so their slaves are better then some new ones bought by a newly rich person. So, having slaves is a good thing, while buying them is a bad thing. (Maybe the stork brings them, or something.) I think it has a lot to do with the very low social status of the slavers, more then anything else.
    Like many societies on this world, social rules in Tsolyanu aren't always logical!

    Wine, slaves, and money are obviously best when they've mellowed in the family vaults for a few generations.
    I don't care if you respect me, just buy my fucking book.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gronan of Simmerya View Post
    Like many societies on this world, social rules in Tsolyanu aren't always logical!

    Wine, slaves, and money are obviously best when they've mellowed in the family vaults for a few generations.
    Why oaky tasting slaves and money are best must be another one of those illogical things.
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