Thread: Questioning chirine ba kal

As just a single point of comparison average 2015 movie price in the US is $8.34. When D&D came out in 1974 the average movie price was $1.87. Buying a copy of D&D cost $10.00 plus shipping and handling. (It took a while before D&D showed up in stores.) If games increased at the same rate as movies (no particular reason they should, but both are leisure entertainment and to some extent are economic substitutes) the OD&D rules would cost $44.46. And OD&D was many things, but a glossy, hardcover it was not.

Originally Posted by yosemitemike

$50-60 core books are pretty normal now. It's looking like $45 will be the new standard price for major Pathfinder sourcebooks from now on. I doubt if the margins on the $60 core books for, say, The Strange are very high considering that's a full color hardback printed on all glossy paper with some really nice art throughout but it's still $60 to get the core book.

I guess they figure that since sales volumes won't be high anyway they might as well get as what they can for each sale. If margins are the same, you get twice as much by selling a $60 book as you do selling a $30 book after all.

Understood. In the old model of publishing, larger print runs reduced unit costs dramatically, which is why one would see pallets of product sitting in the warehouse; printing 5000 copies and pulping 2500 could actually increase the profits on a title. These days, I'd hazard a guess that a $30 retail book is barely breaking even, while a $60 one is showing a profit.

Originally Posted by nDervish

Did that clarify anything for the player? It just reminds me of a "feeling my age" moment I had last year, when I was talking to a D&D5 DM and I started comparing recent D&D editions to the early versions, only to discover that he had no idea what a "Gygax" or a "TSR" were.

Gotcha; very good point. The game session was listed in the program book as "Blackmoor with Dave Arneson", and the GM was listed as Dave Arneson. To me, that would have told me that it was going to be as close to the original games as one was likely to get.

However, you do raise a very good point - I've had the same thing happen to me, when I've mentioned all three of The Big Three, and Dave Wesely. Heck, I've run into people who don't know what Braunsteins are, but that's not all that surprising.

Originally Posted by Hrugga

Well, I can't wait for TStPT to be finished. Even though it's only "fan fiction" and not official...I will some how have a hardcover copy made for my enjoyment. Old Chirine is still ruffling Kh�shchal feathers(some things never change)...

And Uncle you are a rich man. By virtue of the life you have lived thus far, you are far richer than any prince or emperor. You command and have the respect of your family, clan, and legion. May the blessings of The Lord of the Flame be with you.

Thank you for those kind words. I do agree with you about the 'fan fiction' / 'official' dichotomy; I prefer to be the former, despite this type of writing being looked down upon by 'serious' writers. The book is a series of recollections, telling the story of our games with Phil from the perspective of one of the players; there are no rules, no charts, no stats, no tables - if somebody wants to use it as a source of adventures, then they'll have to do their own take on the rules they'll use. In some ways, it's a very considered hearkening back to the days it comes from, when GMs created their own rules for running their creations.

I'm also not planning on doing anything like footnotes; this is not a 'academic' or 'scholarly' study of Phil's gaming. I'll leave that to somebody like Jon Peterson, who's qualified to do it. This is a book about the adventures we had, the people we met, and the world we explored. Nothing more, nothing less. I will include some things like a timeline of events, so the reader can follow things - it does get a little complex - and some 'backstory' material to explain some things. But, I'll keep this to a minimum, and refer the reader to Phil's own works.

We are looking at all options for publication; that will be the job of the publisher and his production team, with my help in rewrites and any material that they think they need. I'm just the storyteller, really.

I'd agree that I've been very, very blessed, both in my gaming career and in real life. I've had the very good fortune to meet and become friends with some truly gifted and amazing people - and picked up an equally amazing and gifted family along the way. Both in the book and out of it...

Originally Posted by Bren

As just a single point of comparison average 2015 movie price in the US is $8.34. When D&D came out in 1974 the average movie price was $1.87. Buying a copy of D&D cost $10.00 plus shipping and handling. (It took a while before D&D showed up in stores.) If games increased at the same rate as movies (no particular reason they should, but both are leisure entertainment and to some extent are economic substitutes) the OD&D rules would cost $44.46. And OD&D was many things, but a glossy, hardcover it was not.

Very good point! Inflation has hit everybody; I'd love to see what a comparison of household income looks like against these numbers. I may be making the most money I've ever had, but my buying power seems to be much smaller then is used to be.

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

Hell if I know; this is coming from gamers I've spoken with over the past eight years, and these seem to be popular buzz words and phrases - just like "maintaining the brand identity" in regards to Tekumel publishing gets bandied about. Or like "Gamist"? "Narrativist"? "Simulationist"? for that matter. (Phil was all three, often in the same game session. Just saying.)

Almost all gamers are all three. The Forge claimed that any game that used more than one was "incoherent" and "inferior". But every single successful RPG does ALL THREE.
And, moreso, NONE of the three are actually the most important thing(s) in the gaming experience. Immersion and versimilitude are.

Originally Posted by Bren

As just a single point of comparison average 2015 movie price in the US is $8.34. When D&D came out in 1974 the average movie price was $1.87. Buying a copy of D&D cost $10.00 plus shipping and handling. (It took a while before D&D showed up in stores.) If games increased at the same rate as movies (no particular reason they should, but both are leisure entertainment and to some extent are economic substitutes) the OD&D rules would cost $44.46. And OD&D was many things, but a glossy, hardcover it was not.

On the other hand, it was the whole game, not just the "Players' Handbook" for $35.

The original WEG Star Wars game first edition was also a marvel of brevity.

Honestly, more than price these days I'm likely to get turned off by page count. I don't WANT a game that's multiples of fucking 350 page books.

Originally Posted by RPGPundit

Almost all gamers are all three. The Forge claimed that any game that used more than one was "incoherent" and "inferior". But every single successful RPG does ALL THREE.
And, moreso, NONE of the three are actually the most important thing(s) in the gaming experience. Immersion and versimilitude are.

Gotcha. I never really understood GNS theory; I thought it felt like 'over-thinking' the subject.