Thread: Questioning chirine ba kal

Originally Posted by Gronan of Simmerya

Oh, my, they HAVE been busy!

You know, besides the sheer shitheadedness of this all, the other thing that amazes me is that the myth of "big money in the RPG world" still persists. D&D hit its zenith in 1982 when it was featured in "E.T. the Extraterrestrial." It's been downhill ever since. Even though it's a good size niche hobby it's nowhere near what it was at its height. The fad is OVER; the bubble has burst, the craze has passed, the Third Age has ended.

Reminds me of a train show I visited in Milwaukee a few years back. I was at the Soundtraxx booth (computer chips to put inside engines that make sound) and some bozo was bitching out one of the VPs for how high prices were. After bozo left she just slumped, and I said "If it makes you feel any better, some of us really do understand how thin your margins really are." She said "If I wanted to make money I'd still be in investment banking, not model trains."

How do you make a million dollars with an RPG company? Start with two million.

*Snort* I've had the same thing said about the miniatures business, too.

Yep; agree with you about the reality of the situation. There are some folks out there, that you and I both know, who are convinced otherwise. They're still waiting for the money to come rolling in, too.

I really feel for the Soundtraxx person; how many times did we have to listen to the same tirades at Origins and Gen Con?

Originally Posted by yosemitemike

I remember His Skarka-ness bitching and moaning about how he deserved to make a living as a full time RPG writer and couldn't. That was back when the market was larger and healthier than it is now. White Wolf has gone from selling 30,000+ copies of a WoD core book to relying on crowdfunding to get them out at all. The only real money to be made is in tie-in novels that mostly sell to people who don't play the game. Even then only the Forgotten Realms tie-in novels made any money and that's because people like the authors that write them rather than caring about the Forgotten Realms as an RPG setting.

Yep; there are quite a few people who are utterly convinced that the RPG business owes them a living - they are so obviously head and shoulders above the rest of us that it should be obvious that we need to send them our money.

Your comments about 'tie-in' novels are very, very accurate. When I started writing "To Serve The Petal Throne" I assumed from the beginning that there would be no money in it for me. I assumed, again from the beginning, that I'd post it up on a website somewhere and people could simply read the thing. We'll see what happens - but I do not have 'great expectations' of being able to retire on the thing. The market is just too small. And I'm not expecting to 'break through' into the mass market, either; I suspect I'm far too out of fashion with my sword and planet tales...

Though actually, the various humorous rpg videos are pretty bad for new players too. When they think the fun of the game is wrecking it for everyone or just being an idiot for laughs. The number of these kids that push away from the table in a rage any time their actions have consequences is tragic.

But they do grow. I've done absolutely everything wrong with my store. I've committed every retail and business sin known to man and indeed it's been costly but I've been at it four years, building a community and a culture. And it's my belief that it's coming along. Slowly to be sure but where I relied on a trio of big spenders in the first three years, I've now got a much broader base and many of them are in their first jobs and the shine of liquor and cars is wearing thin and they're trickling back in.

If we want our hobby to thrive we have to stop marginalizing each other and hiding in our select little non-inclusive groups. We have to get out and teach and let the new kids make their own mistakes. While roleplaying has some limitations that make it a hard sell to mainstream folks who have trouble fitting 3 hours of D&D into their 20 hours a week of television watching, I believe we can grow beyond the shackles of the past. The hottest show on television is a medieval fantasy and the big ticket movies are about Marvel superheroes. This could be our finest hour if we could just get our heads out of our asses.

Originally Posted by David Johansen

Though actually, the various humorous rpg videos are pretty bad for new players too. When they think the fun of the game is wrecking it for everyone or just being an idiot for laughs. The number of these kids that push away from the table in a rage any time their actions have consequences is tragic.

But they do grow. I've done absolutely everything wrong with my store. I've committed every retail and business sin known to man and indeed it's been costly but I've been at it four years, building a community and a culture. And it's my belief that it's coming along. Slowly to be sure but where I relied on a trio of big spenders in the first three years, I've now got a much broader base and many of them are in their first jobs and the shine of liquor and cars is wearing thin and they're trickling back in.

If we want our hobby to thrive we have to stop marginalizing each other and hiding in our select little non-inclusive groups. We have to get out and teach and let the new kids make their own mistakes. While roleplaying has some limitations that make it a hard sell to mainstream folks who have trouble fitting 3 hours of D&D into their 20 hours a week of television watching, I believe we can grow beyond the shackles of the past. The hottest show on television is a medieval fantasy and the big ticket movies are about Marvel superheroes. This could be our finest hour if we could just get our heads out of our asses.

Agreed. The look of absolute wonder on the faces of the 'kids' - the 'younger people' - I had as they discovered actual role-playing was incredible. That' what made it all worthwhile for me, for literally decades.

And, unlike a lot of retail people, you have the sense to learn from your experiences. That's vital.

One suspicion I have is that glossy hard backs are killing us. I think I've got a pretty good handle on how we got there. With a declining market place manufacturers decided that they needed to wring the maximum dollar value out of each customer. The problem is that after fifteen years of that, the old guard have entire basements full of the things and the new kids see the prices as a serious barrier. It's why Palladium, for all its faults, keeps trucking along. If you're a hungry student, $30 for a complete game looks more appealing than $150 for a three book core set with a dozen $50 supplements.

Never mind the endless churn of new editions every two or three years at that same price, deliberately incompatible with the previous to prevent any recycling of material.

Admittedly, the kids at my store are mostly what you'd call disadvantaged or middle lower class or something, the one kid's dad drops a fair bit from time to time but most of them just don't have the money it takes to keep up with console gaming.

It isn't that I don't like pretty books. But I think we're drowning in them and the sheer number of them drives down the sales figures across the board. I think the OGL actually lights the road ahead here. I think there's too many game systems held by companies that in aggressively defending their IP drive people to go into competition with them instead of supporting them.

Originally Posted by David Johansen

One suspicion I have is that glossy hard backs are killing us. I think I've got a pretty good handle on how we got there. With a declining market place manufacturers decided that they needed to wring the maximum dollar value out of each customer. The problem is that after fifteen years of that, the old guard have entire basements full of the things and the new kids see the prices as a serious barrier. It's why Palladium, for all its faults, keeps trucking along. If you're a hungry student, $30 for a complete game looks more appealing than $150 for a three book core set with a dozen $50 supplements.

Never mind the endless churn of new editions every two or three years at that same price, deliberately incompatible with the previous to prevent any recycling of material.

Admittedly, the kids at my store are mostly what you'd call disadvantaged or middle lower class or something, the one kid's dad drops a fair bit from time to time but most of them just don't have the money it takes to keep up with console gaming.

It isn't that I don't like pretty books. But I think we're drowning in them and the sheer number of them drives down the sales figures across the board. I think the OGL actually lights the road ahead here. I think there's too many game systems held by companies that in aggressively defending their IP drive people to go into competition with them instead of supporting them.

Oh, yes, very much so. I see the same issue with miniatures, where the relatively high cost-per-figure for a lot of the models is a very serious barrier to new players. It does not help that several companies have made the most of this strategy by pricing the most powerful miniatures (in their proprietary rules) at the top of the range. I've looked at a number of RPGs over the past few years, and the 'sticker shock' from looking at the prices to get the needed books has made me put the books back on the shelf. I've had the same issue with some of the miniatures I've looked at recently - I just can't justify the cost.

What I did with my 'younger players' was have them look at / borrow books, and then invest if they liked what they saw. Ditto with miniatures, too. That 'trial run' approach seemed to help a lot - got some sales for the FLGS, too.

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

Yep; there are quite a few people who are utterly convinced that the RPG business owes them a living - they are so obviously head and shoulders above the rest of us that it should be obvious that we need to send them our money.

He was utterly convinced that he was entitled to make a living writing RPGs. The sense of entitlement he displayed was mind-boggling to me. As icing on the entitlement cake, I seem to remember that he was living in New York, New York at the time which is one of the most expensive places to live in the US.

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

When I started writing "To Serve The Petal Throne" I assumed from the beginning that there would be no money in it for me. I assumed, again from the beginning, that I'd post it up on a website somewhere and people could simply read the thing. We'll see what happens - but I am do not have 'great expectations' of being able to retire on the thing.

Given the reality of book publishing today, that's a wise assumption.
http://timgrahl.com/the-10-awful-tru...ok-publishing/

Originally Posted by yosemitemike

He was utterly convinced that he was entitled to make a living writing RPGs. The sense of entitlement he displayed was mind-boggling to me. As icing on the entitlement cake, I seem to remember that he was living in New York, New York at the time which is one of the most expensive places to live in the US.


Given the reality of book publishing today, that's a wise assumption.
http://timgrahl.com/the-10-awful-tru...ok-publishing/

Understood. It all reminds me of the time in the early 1980s when everybody thought that they could write the new D&D: "If those two idiots could do it, then I can do a lot better." Lots and lots of people, whom we had to listen to at conventions, were very full of themselves and their wonderful new RPGs that were going to take the world by storm and put TSR out of business.

These days, of course, we have 'desktop publishing', as it used to be called, and the Internet to distribute the product. It's about the only way the second edition of my miniatures rules will ever see the light of day - and I expect to have maybe 100 'views'/'downloads'/'etc.' for it.

"To Serve The Petal Throne" started out as a series of stories for my kids, my grandkids, my nieces, and my nephews. Anybody else is certainly welcome to come along for the ride, of course...

Originally Posted by David Johansen

It's why Palladium, for all its faults, keeps trucking along. If you're a hungry student, $30 for a complete game looks more appealing than $150 for a three book core set with a dozen $50 supplements.

Palladium has done an excellent job of keeping everything inexpensive, in print and readily available. I can hop over there, pick up a copy of Palladium fantasy for ~$27 and be good to go. There hasn't been a new edition since 1996 so the old books are still compatible.

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

. I've looked at a number of RPGs over the past few years, and the 'sticker shock' from looking at the prices to get the needed books has made me put the books back on the shelf. I've had the same issue with some of the miniatures I've looked at recently - I just can't justify the cost..

$50-60 core books are pretty normal now. It's looking like $45 will be the new standard price for major Pathfinder sourcebooks from now on. I doubt if the margins on the $60 core books for, say, The Strange are very high considering that's a full color hardback printed on all glossy paper with some really nice art throughout but it's still $60 to get the core book.

I guess they figure that since sales volumes won't be high anyway they might as well get as what they can for each sale. If margins are the same, you get twice as much by selling a $60 book as you do selling a $30 book after all.