Thread: Questioning chirine ba kal

Originally Posted by Gronan of Simmerya

Jeez.

Well, the OCR version would take time and effort, the old edition just needed printing.

Cynical? Me? Oh, you say the sweetest things!

<snicker>

Considering how many hours I had to listen to their phone calls complaining about just how much work it all was, and that they couldn't cope, I don't think you're being cynical at all. These are, after all, the same people who worked tirelessly to undermine everything you and I tried to do for Tekumel, I think them now being in the publication hot seat is more then a little ironic.

Ah, me. It's good to be retired.

And now, for everyone's amusement, let's have dear old Uncle Chirine ask a question, instead of answering one.

If I may, and please keep in mind that I exist in my own little bubble of reality here in the Northwoods and am not au fait with a lot of modern gaming terms, would anyone like to have a go at explaining the term immersion to me?

I've seen it go by in a number of places and in a number of discussions, but I don't think I really understand it. For example, it's been observed that using miniatures in an RPG "spoils the immersion" for the person; okay, I can certainly understand that viewpoint - after all, it is your game! - but I'm frankly unsure what is being spoiled. (I can understand the 'how'.)

My aged and ancient perspective on this particular facet of the subject is that back in the day, we liked using miniatures simply (I suspect) because a lot of us were people who like to make miniatures. For us, they were just another tool - we also used coins, dice, plastic game pieces from Milton Bradley, cardboard chits from board games, and anything else that came to hand. For us, our fascination was with the action around the table.

Am I heading in the right direction? Is what's meant by 'immersion' the fascination with the game play? Can anyone clarify this for me, as I am sincerely curious!

(Later on, somebody can tell me what 'b/x' is. Yes, I really am that old.)

Thanks in advance!

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

And now, for everyone's amusement, let's have dear old Uncle Chirine ask a question, instead of answering one.

If I may, and please keep in mind that I exist in my own little bubble of reality here in the Northwoods and am not au fait with a lot of modern gaming terms, would anyone like to have a go at explaining the term immersion to me?

I've seen it go by in a number of places and in a number of discussions, but I don't think I really understand it. For example, it's been observed that using miniatures in an RPG "spoils the immersion" for the person; okay, I can certainly understand that viewpoint - after all, it is your game! - but I'm frankly unsure what is being spoiled. (I can understand the 'how'.)

My aged and ancient perspective on this particular facet of the subject is that back in the day, we liked using miniatures simply (I suspect) because a lot of us were people who like to make miniatures. For us, they were just another tool - we also used coins, dice, plastic game pieces from Milton Bradley, cardboard chits from board games, and anything else that came to hand. For us, our fascination was with the action around the table.

Am I heading in the right direction? Is what's meant by 'immersion' the fascination with the game play? Can anyone clarify this for me, as I am sincerely curious!

(Later on, somebody can tell me what 'b/x' is. Yes, I really am that old.)

Thanks in advance!

B/X is easy. It's the "Basic/Expert" box (or two boxes, not sure) of TSR-era D&D rules.

Immersion is...ahem, it would be easy to describe if people were using it to mean the same thing. Except they don't, IME. It's quickly approaching the status of a buzzword that allows you to say something was good or that something prevents you from enjoying the game, without actually conveying any info other than "dissatisfied customer".
OTOH, I think I can explain its original meaning quickly so you could understand it (though under the influence of Exalted thread, I'm going to pick an example that might not be clear for everyone - but I assume you're going to understand it).
So, imagine you just went through a series of shadowboxing or even kata-style exercises. At the end, you felt like you were there and were fending off assaults with your sword, fists, or whatever.
That's "immersion". "Ruined my immersion", in this case, means "felt like I was a player on a game table instead of a character in a game world".

Now, the catch?
Different people are bothered by different things. For many people, a LARP is immersive. To me, it's anti-immersive, because as soon as I see someone do some stupid thing that gives advantage under the LARP's rules, or see a supposedly great warrior that doesn't know how to hold a sword, I'm no longer feeling as my character, I'm acutely aware that these are just players, and ones that Did Not Do The Research at that!

Immersion is great when you can get it. When you get it from a play or a movie or a book it's called "being transported." Now the problem comes in when some people are being transported to different places due to the different ways their brains, linguistic, and cultural touch points work. Because it breaks down fast when people start arguing. I think this is part of why licenced science fiction games have done so much better than others in the market. People have a common sense of what a Constitution class cruiser or an X-wing or an Vulcan or an astromech droid looks like and how it behaves so everyone gets into the same head space.

Miniatures can help avoid arguments but they also take time to set up and disrupt narrative flow. They also, stop players from using abstract combat situations to get an advantage by arguing about where they were when the grenade went off.

My own take on immersion is that it means you have suspended your disbelief. There's a lot about the suspension of disbelief here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspension_of_disbelief

When I talk about immersion, I mean immersion in the character.

Originally Posted by Jason D

The short answer is that when a player is "immersed" in the game, they're seeing the world through their character's eyes...

Yes this.

More than seeing the world, for me it is about thinking and feeling as the character. Thinking of the world from the character's perspective rather than from my own perspective. The perspective becomes first-person--so I don't have to think about "What would my character do in this situation?" I can react or know without thinking what my character does. In that case I tend to describe my character's actions in the first person.

A really big part is the emotional component--feeling as the character. Which often means making tactically suboptimal choices because that is what an impatient, angry, or naive character would do even though I, as the player, know that may not be (and often is not) the optimal choice to make at that time.

So it is two things - acting from a strictly in-character point of view and feeling from an in-character point of view as that particular character.

Other people use immersion for what I would describe as engagement. So people will say they are immersed when they are acting from an authorial perspective because they are engaged with the scene or involved with the evolving story. That's not what I mean.

I'm finding this fascinating; thank you, everyone for your comments so far!

Originally Posted by Hrugga

So what color is Tekumel's sky? What do I see as I look around me?

Just a quick follow-up; the picture I'm thinking of used to be up on the official Tekumel website, but I don't know if it's still there...