Thread: Questioning chirine ba kal

Originally Posted by Bren

I posted a short review of Fury on my blog that includes a long list of factoids from my reading. A number of these will inform my campaign setting. Some were already included.

To take one example, ransom for officers was something I took from the Flashing Blades game. It is a major potential source of extra revenue for soldiers. And taking in account the fact that officers were usually nobles of some kind and thus had other sources of income beyond their salary as listed in FB, the ransom figures in FB looks to be in the right ball park for the generally accepted ransom in period of 1x annual income.
Perfectly understandable. Since I already own Vol. 1 and 2 of the old Gamescience boxed sets I did not need to wait.

Great post! Thank you!!!

Originally Posted by Big Andy

Some more questions:

Are clans controlled by a single individual or from something like a board of directors? Is it more diffuse than that, with something like the clan in city A being basically separate from the same clan in city B, with both aiming to increase the clans prestige but only overlapping where one city's interests take it to the other? If that is case, who decides which direction the clan as a whole takes if clan groups in two different cities have goals that are at odds?

Gambling is common from what I understand, with dice and gladiatorial games mentioned (not sure about cards). Is there sports and sports betting? Is gambling interpersonal or do some clans run betting parlors and/or sports books? Can you describe the gladiatorial games? Are there different types like in Rome?

Given that you and Gronan have really made short work of the "Tekumel is impossible for a new player to understand or play" canard, what in your experience was the hardest thing to grasp or understand? What have you seen players, whether new or experienced, stumble on? Spelling, grammar, and pronunciation aside, of course!

Thank you for your questions!

Clans - It's more like a board of directors. The clan elders in a particular location run the clan's affairs, and yes, it's diffuse. Each clan house in each different location is more or less independent of the others - the Vriddi are an exception to this - but they do get together every now and then for big conferences to discuss matters. These usually turn into big parties, and they also serve as the starting place for adventures of all kinds.

Gaming is very common. There's a card game from Livyanu, which is like poker with a tarot deck. Yes, there are sports like marotlan (football), with lots of betting, and you do get 'betting clans' that run gambling halls (dens, really) and also serve as GMs at parties. The gladiatorial shows start out with the comedy acts, then the demonstration teams from all over, with the judicial duels of all kinds as the top of the bill. There are different types of professional gladiator, showing off different types of weapons and styles; the judicial / honor duels are very strictly regulated, with both parties required to have their weapons equally matched. A magical duel is considered to be the height of entertainment, as they are both rare and spectacular.

Thanks for the kind words; it's true, though. I think the hardest thing we had to learn was the social interconnections - no 'murderhobos'. It's not something you see much in American society, at least for us back in the day.

And ignore the spelling, grammar, and pronunciation. This is an adventure, not language camp. You can pick that up later.

Originally Posted by AsenRG

I think the next biggest hurdle is the people telling the new players they can't get it in play, but let's say the next biggest.

Yeah; this. I try...

Originally Posted by Big Andy

Some more questions:

Are clans controlled by a single individual or from something like a board of directors? Is it more diffuse than that, with something like the clan in city A being basically separate from the same clan in city B, with both aiming to increase the clans prestige but only overlapping where one city's interests take it to the other? If that is case, who decides which direction the clan as a whole takes if clan groups in two different cities have goals that are at odds?

Besides what Chirine said, I'd like to add "it depends."

When thinking about clans, don't think of them as corporations, or business concerns, or bureaucracies, or trade unions, though they have some elements of those.

First and foremost, a clan is an extended family. It acquires those other functions as required. But at its heart it is a family, and like any family the official structure is often at odds with the reality (see also War and Peace.) Uncle Nekkuru isn't one of the "Elders," but nobody would dream of committing the clan to a trade deal without asking his advice... all very informal and casual, one evening while sipping the mash-fruit brandy, of course. Not only would it be rude to not chat, but he knows who we can trust and who not to trust.

And "Auntie" Hekke is technically a slave. But she's officially the Kitchen Steward, and if an energetic young lad in his early twenties wants a snack, a bit of flattery and a trinket or two will go a long way. She won't believe a word of it, but what lady doesn't like flattery?

As for "what was the hardest to learn?"

Two things. 1) This is a pre-Enlightenment culture... the "individual" is not the greatest good. The good of the Clan, the Temple, and the Empire are more important than the individual. Raised in the Midwest USA in the 1960s on Westerns on TV and movies, the "one lone rugged individual" was deeply ingrained.

2) "Outsider" has a very broad definition. Again, in the US we were raised being taught "all men are created equal," etc. And every society has laws against murder, and theft, and etc. But "murder" means killing a human being... and that's not a human being, that's a Milumaniyani. The notion that ALL members of Homo sapiens sapiens Terrae are human beings with equal value of other human beings is a VERY late development in the history of the world. That was ALSO hard to grasp. It's why clans are SO important; your clan is your group, your "us," and you really can't trust anybody who isn't one of "us."

Great points Gronan. I think the focus on group over individual is a very hard concept for any modern Western culture to really 'get' and the culture in the US skews much more towards the individual than even most Western cultures.

Originally Posted by Gronan of Simmerya

2) "Outsider" has a very broad definition. Again, in the US we were raised being taught "all men are created equal," etc. And every society has laws against murder, and theft, and etc. But "murder" means killing a human being... and that's not a human being, that's a Milumaniyani. The notion that ALL members of Homo sapiens sapiens Terrae are human beings with equal value of other human beings is a VERY late development in the history of the world. That was ALSO hard to grasp. It's why clans are SO important; your clan is your group, your "us," and you really can't trust anybody who isn't one of "us."

I quoted this one section to set the context for another question for you and Chrine.

1) As I understand it, your PCs started out not only as outsiders to your clans but outsiders to Tsolyani culture. What was the process for becoming a member of a clan?

2) Were there various steps formal or informal?

3) How long did it take?

4) Was the process you two went through the same or different than what other PC/player dyads went through.

4) Given that you didn't grow up with your clan brothers/sisters why did they decide to trust you (assuming that they all did)?

5) How did you each select your clan - both from a PC POV and a player POV?

6) Or did the clan actually select you?

One group of early PCs tried to make their own clan and get it "official" status. I now realize how much of a refusal to engage Phil's entire premise this was.

Now, as for the Glorious General:

I did indeed start out as a foreigner washed up in Jakalla. As I said earlier, Anka'a, Moose, and I guarded each other in the Foreigner's Quarters (you'll never find a more wretched hive of scum an villainy.) At 3rd level you know enough to leave the FQ unescorted, so we could actually rent relatively safe digs.

I joined the Army at 3rd or 4th level. The Army was my home for years. I was in the Legion of Serqu, Sword of the Empire, a very ancient and prestigious legion. Essentially, I tried my best for years to be a loyal Soldier of the Empire. After enough years, General Serqu realized I was loyal, dogged, a fair dinkum tactician, and had absolutely no political leanings at all other than to the Petal Throne. I had had enough successes to be "Mentioned in Dispatches" and had won THREE Golds of Glory. I was offered command of my own Legion, membership in General Serqu's clan, Golden Sunburst (a VERY high and prestigious clan) AND Serqu's sister in marriage all at pretty much the same time. I even asked Phil why. He said simply that I was a Bright Young Hero (tm) and that it was obvious that I was headed for either a brilliant military career or a heroic death, and that clans liked having bright young sparks as ornaments to make them look good. By that time we knew enough to speak on a more direct level. He said in as many words "as long as you act heroic and loyal you make the clan look good."

I don't know how it went with other PCs. A lot of "The Other Group" were Prince Mirusiya's "New Men" and got generalships and promotions and clans and stuff through politicing and ass kissing.

I started out as a cohort commander (Kasi), after about ... geez.. five or six real years I finally made it to Molkar, field commander of half a legion. I was the "Mighty Molkar" for another three or four years before accidentally seducing Serqu's sister.

Serqu trusted me because my loyalty to the Legion was absolute... "General Serqu says 'fight,' and you fight" ... and I really, truly had NO ambition other than to be good soldier. And when Uncle Serqu says this kid will be a bright shiny ornament for the clan, who are we to argue?

Originally Posted by Gronan of Simmerya

Besides what Chirine said, I'd like to add "it depends."

When thinking about clans, don't think of them as corporations, or business concerns, or bureaucracies, or trade unions, though they have some elements of those.

First and foremost, a clan is an extended family. It acquires those other functions as required. But at its heart it is a family, and like any family the official structure is often at odds with the reality (see also War and Peace.) Uncle Nekkuru isn't one of the "Elders," but nobody would dream of committing the clan to a trade deal without asking his advice... all very informal and casual, one evening while sipping the mash-fruit brandy, of course. Not only would it be rude to not chat, but he knows who we can trust and who not to trust.

And "Auntie" Hekke is technically a slave. But she's officially the Kitchen Steward, and if an energetic young lad in his early twenties wants a snack, a bit of flattery and a trinket or two will go a long way. She won't believe a word of it, but what lady doesn't like flattery?

As for "what was the hardest to learn?"

Two things. 1) This is a pre-Enlightenment culture... the "individual" is not the greatest good. The good of the Clan, the Temple, and the Empire are more important than the individual. Raised in the Midwest USA in the 1960s on Westerns on TV and movies, the "one lone rugged individual" was deeply ingrained.

2) "Outsider" has a very broad definition. Again, in the US we were raised being taught "all men are created equal," etc. And every society has laws against murder, and theft, and etc. But "murder" means killing a human being... and that's not a human being, that's a Milumaniyani. The notion that ALL members of Homo sapiens sapiens Terrae are human beings with equal value of other human beings is a VERY late development in the history of the world. That was ALSO hard to grasp. It's why clans are SO important; your clan is your group, your "us," and you really can't trust anybody who isn't one of "us."

This, on all points. Tekumel is all about nuance, in a lot of ways.

Originally Posted by Bren

I quoted this one section to set the context for another question for you and Chrine.

Your questions in underlined italics, if that's all right.

1) As I understand it, your PCs started out not only as outsiders to your clans but outsiders to Tsolyani culture. What was the process for becoming a member of a clan?

I started out as a Tsolyani, but from the Chakas. This was because I surprised Phil - shocked him, I think - when I picked the lineage name ba Kal. 'ba' is a very rare locative prefix for names, and figures in only one other lineage in Phil's work: Firu ba Yeker, of the Clan of the Uttermost Secret. So, Phil told me that I was a Chakan. As such, I was a member of a clan, the small but respectable Eye of Flame, since I'm a Vimhula worshipper. I'm still a Tsolyani, just not a 'native' of the central Empire. I do have an accent, which marks me instantly as a Chakan.

Jim Danielson and Rick Bjugen, the other founders of the original Thursday Night Group, had their PCs 'grandfathered' in from Craig Smith's campaign at Fifth Precinct, so they also started out with clans. Later players in our group were simply given clans by Phil.

I did 'move over' into a different clan much later in the campaign, Iron Helm, but that was for political reasons and was ordered by Prince Mirusiya. More on that in a bit.

The process was pretty simple; you had to know somebody, and they'd refer you to a clan; the clan would look you over, see if they thought you were worth it, and 'adopt' you. You were expected to make a nice gift to the clan, and 'pay dues' - a portion of your personal income would always go to the clan.

2) Were there various steps formal or informal?

The informal part were the socializing and 'interviews' where they got to know you. If you passed these, then there would be paperwork to file with the Imperium and a big party to throw. It's pretty simple, and pretty straightforward. The tough part is convincing the clan that you're worth having.

3) How long did it take?

Anywhere from a month to a year, depending on how high the clan was. The high-status clans really ask a lot of questions, do 'background checks' and want to know all about you before they'll let you in.

4a) Was the process you two went through the same or different than what other PC/player dyads went through.

Very different for the two of us, as we came in at different times. Later players had it a lot easier, as Phil usually gave them clans to speed things up in the campaign. He did pull a surprise on Kathy - he gave her a lineage and clan, but told me not to tell her what they meant until he could surprise her with them. (Or Else; and he meant it, too.)

4b) Given that you didn't grow up with your clan brothers/sisters why did they decide to trust you (assuming that they all did)?

I grew up with my original clan; the Iron Helm people trusted me because I had a proven track record, and the 'suggestion' by an Imperial Prince that I was worthy of being in their clan.

5) How did you each select your clan - both from a PC POV and a player POV?

No choice, in my case; Phil simply told me.

6) Or did the clan actually select you?

Well, Eye of Flame was pretty obvious, and Phil liked the notion. Iron Helm was when I got a promotion from Imperial Errand-boy And Exterminator Of People Who Are Imperial Problems to Imperial Governor And Saver Of Imperial Butts; the Prince thought I should get a really nice promotion in clans to match. Phil rolled the dice, and told me what was happening. I smiled, kept my mouth shut, and said "Yes, of course, Highborn! To hear is to obey, Highborn!" I gave a nice gift to Iron Helm for it, and also to Eye of Flame for their understanding. (I still make donations to both, as it's considered 'noble action' on my part to do so.) I was also made a Lord in the process, enabling me to dress a little better and get called fancier names.

I'm sorry that I'm not typical of the PCs; Gronan is probably a better example of how Phil did things in the early days. After the groups split, he 'grandfathered' in a lot of people that he wanted to have in the group, like Gronan, and so tended to elevate new PCs to a roughly equivalent status.

Does this help at all? (Like I say, I worry...)

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

Does this help at all? (Like I say, I worry...)

Yes, very helpful thanks. Also, don't worry. Be happy.