Thread: Questioning chirine ba kal

Originally Posted by Big Andy

Fabulous thread. Really loving it.

Some questions for you:

You mention that some of you guy's exploits are background stuff in the various novels. Were there any times in the five novels where you or the General were called out by name or walked by the action? I can't remember any but I could easily have missed it.

Can you explain the Arneson's ship system a little more? Was it similar to the train card system you mentioned? How many ships were plying the aklo filled depths?

You showed the incredible map of the Jakalla Underworld (much, much) earlier in the thread. Is that available anywhere? From the picture and description, it is stunning.

You describe the Prof playing almost system-less for the rpg but that you broke out minis for military actions. I am assuming that, you and Prof being old wargamers, you did not play this system-less. Did you use the same wargame for your skirmish/braunstein level stuff as you did for large engagements?

Thanks again to you and Gronan for answering these questions.

Welcome aboard! What makes this threat great are the people like you who ask the questions - so ask away!

Vrisa is mentioned by name in "Man of Gold", but I think she's the only one. We are mentioned at the end of the same book - the Southern Continent expedition - and we're the ones behind the big ship in Lake Parunal (Harchar and the rest of us) and the Third Battle of Mar in "Flamesong". I think that the General might have gotten a mention there, but I'd have to look. Otherwise, no, we're usually not the ones being given ego-strokes by being mentioned by name. The other group was relaly into that kind of thing, as were the later player in the middle 1990s and after.

What Dave did was create about thirty ship captains and their ships.( These are in the 1992 version of the database.) Then, he and Phil made notes on cargo - on index cards, as near as I can tell - and then matched both sets up ala the card order system using paper clips. Phil then shuffled the deck, and put the cards into his card files. When he did the meta game shuffle every month, he simply moved the ships around as per the cargo cards, and exchanged cargoes when each was delivered. A new cargo would be picked up, and the ship would set sail again.

It's a brilliant adaptation by the two of them of an existing technology to make the GM's job easier. With this, one has a ready-made source of ships in harbor at any time, with information on them and where they are going. The possibilities for generating adventures are infinite.

The Jakalla map and notes are not available anywhere. The Tekumel Foundation has made noises about publishing them, but that was a awhile ago; they seem to have about a three to five year turnaround on projects, based on current performance.

Uh-oh! Deeper waters ahead!

Generally, we did play skirmish games without a formal rules system. Let me list some of the games we played in miniature:

Attack on the fort near Tu'umnra - skirmish, played with EPT rules, but Phil really generalized the Pe Choi and did not roll them up as NPCs;

Assault on the palace of Bassa, King of the Black Ssu - skirmish, played with EPT, same note;

Storming Castle Tilketl - formal attack, but played as a skirmish - EPT rules, same note;

Third Mar - formal battle, played with my "Qadardalikoi" rules;

Battle of Anch'ke - encounter battle, played with "Qadardalikoi";

I think it was the size of the battle that was driving whether or not Phil would use a formal rules set. The first two battles were small-sized, with about twenty of us in our party; Tilketl was a sort of 'in-between' battle, with less then a cohort of troops on each side; the latter two were big battles, with us having a legion plus extras for our troops.

I do think, though, you have a very good point; because we were 'old wargamers', I think we could run a battle with a minimum of rules because we all 'knew the rules' - we all knew "Chainmail" by heart, for example - so we could get on with the fight with a minimum of time and page-flipping. I still run my games the same way - the number-crunching happens off-stage, so the players can get on with the fun.

Have a look at my videos on You Tube to see this in action. Because I know how the numbers work in the system, I can do it all in my head and get on with the adventure. Same thing with Phil; he knew how he wanted his Tekumel to work, and so a lot of the time we just rolled and reacted to what happened. "The dice don't lie, people!" was one of his favorite game table remarks; he had this amazing ability to react to and go with the dice rolls as they happened.

I should also note that when people play any set of rules and learn them, the game flow speeds up dramatically. We did this; we learned EPT pretty quickly, and after that all we did was roll - we knew what our stats were, and our chances to hit, so we'd simply tell Phil if we'd hit or not, and he'd take it from there. So, it looks system-less, but there's a lot of learning that we did to make that happen.

Has this helped, or just made it more complicated? (I worry.)

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

Must get this book! Thank you!

It's not a cheery read and there isn't any glory, nor does it focus on the strategic or diplomatic level. It is focused on war's effect on the commoners whether soldiers, peasants, or townsmen. And it has some pretty good nuggets of data and gave me a better perspective about why there was what seemed to be a lot of aimless movement in some of the early modern campaigns - not aimless, but not strategic either. Just the generals moving their armies to a new piece of countryside where they might find better foraging for food and fodder.

Originally Posted by Bren

It's not a cheery read and there isn't any glory, nor does it focus on the strategic or diplomatic level. It is focused on war's effect on the commoners whether soldiers, peasants, or townsmen. And it has some pretty good nuggets of data and gave me a better perspective about why there was what seemed to be a lot of aimless movement in some of the early modern campaigns - not aimless, but not strategic either. Just the generals moving their armies to a new piece of countryside where they might find better foraging for food and fodder.

Yes! This! This is one of these books that I think should be on everyone's reading list. If one wants 'realism', then here we are.

Phil would have been all over this book. At a minimum four pounds of foot and two quarts of water per soldier a day, times six thousand soldiers, one gets really interested in where the nearest water hole or source of food is...

Excellent! Thank you!!!

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

Yes! This! This is one of these books that I think should be on everyone's reading list. If one wants 'realism', then here we are.

Phil would have been all over this book. At a minimum four pounds of foot and two quarts of water per soldier a day, times six thousand soldiers, one gets really interested in where the nearest water hole or source of food is...

Excellent! Thank you!!!

The number I saw was 1.5 lbs of bread and 1.0 lbs of meat. Also don't forget you need to bring the mills to grind the grain into flour, the ovens to bake it into bread, and the fuel to heat the oven. You forgot the wine. And you don't really want to drink the water anywhere near where six thousand soldiers plus the 600+ wagons and their 2000+ horses have just passed.

Originally Posted by Bren

The number I saw was 1.5 lbs of bread and 1.0 lbs of meat. Also don't forget you need to bring the mills to grind the grain into flour, the ovens to bake it into bread, and the fuel to heat the oven. You forgot the wine. And you don't really want to drink the water anywhere near where six thousand soldiers plus the 600+ wagons and their 2000+ horses have just passed.

I love this. Engels gave the four/food and two/ water in his book on Alexander's logistics; these numbers you give match what I've read about Roman rations. And yes, you are right about the 'impedimentia' in the baggage train. I've been fascinated by all the Roman re-enactment (like Prof. Junklemann's) where all this stuff is actually carried out on the march and tried to be used.

And it does point up why campaigns on Tekumel are always fraught with difficulty and have such slow paces; given that chlen carts move as slowly as oxen or bullock carts, we would up using the escorted baggage train as a base of operations - it moved along, and we'd send out skirmishing / foraging parties from that moving base.

And entrenching at night? Nah. We'd laager up the carts, put out stakes around the camp perimeter, and hope for the best. This worked in relatively 'civilized' area, but outside? Hah!

Wonderful stuff! Thank you!!!

Bren, for the record, this book went on my "to read" list.
But there's one that takes precedence.

Swords and Glory Vol 1 is on Drivethru, finally!

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

Oh, probably! I wasn't really a 'bureaucrat' per se, but much more of a military staff officer. Less paperwork, more marching, and you do get to kill anyone who messes up your requisitions.

Yes, talking with Gordy and accessing his vast store of knowledge had an influence on all of us; he and Poul Anderson were founders of the SCA, back when, and as just about all of us were also either in the group or went to events, that also had an influence - which is why we have all those costumes and suits of armor in the basement.

Gordy and Poul have Book Six dedicated to them, along with Sir John Hawkwood. Each of the six volumes are dedicated to those people who had the biggest influence on me in their particular area of expertise.

Some of them might surprise you, like Col. A. D. Wintle of the First The Royals; I heartily suggest his hugely funny book, "The Last Englishman". When Wintle was captured by the Vichy French - he was an Intellegence officer in the British army at the time - he refused to be shot by them as he didn't think they were up to the job, and insisted on being shot by the Nazis instead as he felt that the Gestapo would do a better job. The Gestapo had no problems with shooting him, as he'd been a thorn in their side for years, but did say that it was really a French problem as they'd arrested him in the first place.

While the officials discussed this, Wintle sawed through the bars of his cell and escaped back to England.

I couldn't make this stuff up if I tried, folks. Real-life is an infinite source of adventure ideas...

You've got to admit it, chirine. You weren't a simple bureaucrat, you were an Eclipse!



And there are hardly many better influences than guys like Poul Anderson, from all I know about him. Obviously Gordon Dickson rates with him, too.

The thing that surprises me most in real life are the people that claim real life is boring. I wonder whether they can imagine how much efforts governments have to invest in keeping it that way for them...
So, this guy? He sounds so over the top, it almost has to be true!

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

Yes! This! This is one of these books that I think should be on everyone's reading list. If one wants 'realism', then here we are.

"Swords and Glory" still got precedence, though!

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

And entrenching at night? Nah. We'd laager up the carts, put out stakes around the camp perimeter, and hope for the best. This worked in relatively 'civilized' area, but outside? Hah!

Wonderful stuff! Thank you!!!

I assume you'd entrench for the night in less civilised areas? Nothing to help the soldiers stop being unhappy about having to work like hordes of savages ready for a night raid!
Not that they'd ever be happy, but let's be realistic, they're not going to mutiny if it has saved their lives. Well, they're not going to, unless we assume instigators, lack of payment and/or sufficient food, stupid commanders, or other embarrassments!

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

Wonderful stuff! Thank you!!!

I posted a short review of Fury on my blog that includes a long list of factoids from my reading. A number of these will inform my campaign setting. Some were already included.

To take one example, ransom for officers was something I took from the Flashing Blades game. It is a major potential source of extra revenue for soldiers. And taking in account the fact that officers were usually nobles of some kind and thus had other sources of income beyond their salary as listed in FB, the ransom figures in FB looks to be in the right ball park for the generally accepted ransom in period of 1x annual income.

Originally Posted by AsenRG

Bren, for the record, this book went on my "to read" list.
But there's one that takes precedence.

Swords and Glory Vol 1 is on Drivethru, finally!

Perfectly understandable. Since I already own Vol. 1 and 2 of the old Gamescience boxed sets I did not need to wait.

Originally Posted by Bren

I posted a short review of Fury on my blog that includes a long list of factoids from my reading. A number of these will inform my campaign setting. Some were already included.

Perfectly understandable. Since I already own Vol. 1 and 2 of the old Gamescience boxed sets I did not need to wait.

I like your post.

And well, both you and chirine don't need it, but this is great news for us newer players.

Originally Posted by Big Andy

Given that you and Gronan have really made short work of the "Tekumel is impossible for a new player to understand or play" canard, what in your experience was the hardest thing to grasp or understand? What have you seen players, whether new or experienced, stumble on? Spelling, grammar, and pronunciation aside, of course!

I think the next biggest hurdle is the people telling the new players they can't get it in play, but let's say the next biggest.

Originally Posted by AsenRG

You've got to admit it, chirine. You weren't a simple bureaucrat, you were an Eclipse!

The thing that surprises me most in real life are the people that claim real life is boring. I wonder whether they can imagine how much efforts governments have to invest in keeping it that way for them...
So, this guy? He sounds so over the top, it almost has to be true!

I assume you'd entrench for the night in less civilised areas? Nothing to help the soldiers stop being unhappy about having to work like hordes of savages ready for a night raid!
Not that they'd ever be happy, but let's be realistic, they're not going to mutiny if it has saved their lives. Well, they're not going to, unless we assume instigators, lack of payment and/or sufficient food, stupid commanders, or other embarrassments!

I've never played at of White Wolf's stuff, so I had to follow the link. Pretty accurate, I think.

I get most of my adventure ideas from real life / history, just like Phil did. Ask Gronan how many castle drains we crawled through. As for Col. Wintle; the British Army was (and may still be) full of such eccentrics. He's on the web, in a number of places. So is Gen. Adrian Carton De Wiaart, who's even more 'out there'.

Yes, we'd dig in when the locals were not aware of the benefits of civilization - and the ground was good. Good water, decent light slope for run-off, and no heights overlooking the camp.

Gen. Reynolds: "John, is this good ground?" Gen. Buford: "Yessir, it is." July 1st, 1864, at a place called Gettysburg.