Thread: Questioning chirine ba kal

Originally Posted by Gronan of Simmerya

Well, yeah. I'll have to look up Steel Bonnets. I think Frasier may be less known as a historical writer than he deserves. Ever read Quartered Safe Out Here?

Agreed. Yes, I have; it's on the shelf right next to the sort-of-maybe 'sequels', the 'McAuslan' series, where Our Hero (A Feckless Young Subaltern) endures having The Dirtiest Soldier In The World under his command. It's a very thinly fictionalized account (in three books) of Frasier's time in the Gordon Highlanders as a young officer, and is - in my opinion - a gold mine of useful adventures for the GM.

Wonderfully funny, full of amazing characters, and loads of possible plots for the PCs to follow up on...

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

Third reply!

Speaking from a Chakan's standpoint...

The Tsolyani are seen as arrogant and pompous, and very full of themselves.
The Mu'uglavyani are seen as very paperwork-bound, rigid, and very full of themselves.
The Livyani are seen as being very secretive, very arrogant, and very full of themselves.
The Salarvyani, are seen as crude, bumptious, loud, and very full of themselves.
The Yan Koryani, are seen as loud, rude, crude, bumptious, and very full of themselves.
The small states are seen as dependent on the Five Empires, and of no account; they resent this, as they are very full of themselves.
The Ssu and the Hlyss don't like any of the above, and are not liked in return.

Everybody is polite to everybody else - with the exception of the Ssu and Hlyss, of course - but there isn't a lot of love lost between the Five Empires generally. Individually, of course, there are fast friendships and relationships all over the place, but on a national basis there isn't all that much in common between the Five.

Attitudes and stereotypes can best be summed up as "Would you want your sister to marry one?"

See also The Sourcebook, S&G I for more on all of this.

I'm trying to keep this short; I could go on forever about this, and bore you to tears...

Also, the Chakans are very full of themselves, and that's the best you can say about them!

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

I'm sorry - should have been more clear:

http://www.amazon.com/Setting-Wargam.../dp/B0016KHKJC

I think it's also available as a PDF, but you'd have to look...

I found a second edition for like 15 pounds.
This is third edition. Does the difference matter?

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

Thank you for the reminder - no, he was not. He did have an interest in wargaming; he and Gronan worked on a set of SF miniatures rules, but his publisher had a fit over the idea and wanted heaps of money for a license. Which was too bad; Gronan's rules were great, and provided us with hours of fun.

Too bad.
Your stories are like a reminder that IP has a bad side as well.

Originally Posted by AsenRG

Also, the Chakans are very full of themselves, and that's the best you can say about them!


I found a second edition for like 15 pounds.
This is third edition. Does the difference matter?


Too bad.
Your stories are like a reminder that IP has a bad side as well.

a. Yes, we are. Being stuck between two large, active, and expansionist empires with big armies has bred into us a sturdy self-reliance and willingness to stand up for what we believe in - which is mostly ourselves, our families, and our clans. The notion of loyalty to a central authority, either Avantha or Ssa'atis, comes a long way down the line. Just like on The Borders...

Priest: "Are there any Christians here?"
Borderer: "Nah, we all be Armstrongs and Maxwells."

b. Shouldn't be; I think the covers changed, but not the text.

c. Agreed. The problems seem to come in with the 'middlemen' who have high overheads to pay for. Licenses are a very high-profit, very low-expense source of revenue for a publisher / producer; back in the day, it was a standard clause in all publishing contracts that the author gave up their rights to their IP to their publisher. I caught this in Phil's contract with DAW for "Man of Gold", and Phil renegotiated the contract to keep his "motion picture, television, and dramatic productions" rights.

As a 'fer instance', Heinlein had no say over the production of the 1976 Avalon-Hill "Starship Troopers" game; he hated the artwork, and when an unsuspecting fan handed him a copy for an autograph at the 1976 World Con he threw the game across the room. He had no recourse; his contract with his publisher was the standard one of the time, and while he got a very small percentage of the cover price of the game, the publisher got most of the money, both from the license fee and the royalties.

The publishers justified this by pointing out that the authors were getting larger 'advances' (1) up front for their works, and that the publishers were assuming all of the costs and risks involved in bringing the work to market. Thus, any money they could make off the licenses were their reward for taking these risks. Authors who didn't like the terms could go elsewhere...

Of course, back then there was no 'elsewhere', and an author stood a good chance of being 'blacklisted' and not getting any contracts if they had a reputation for being 'difficult'. Back when I was in fandom, the absolute power that editors and publishers had over authors was astonishing. (It was like Hollywood in the 1920s and 1930s, in a lot of ways.)

These days, of course, the Internet and desktop publishing have completely changed the scene. There is now very little money in the 'traditional' publishing industry, and the emphasis is on mass-market sure-fire hits. The genres are now very small niches in the industry, and are more or less going to the web as that's where they can thrive.

Modern IP holders are, in effect, investment brokers. The big money is in license fees, not publishing.

(1) 'advances' are short for 'advance on royalties'. Quite a few authors were delighted to get a big check for their work from their publisher (less their agents' commission fees. of course) but were then surprised to get more or less nothing afterwards. Any royalties from sales were deducted from the sum of the advance, so it could be years before any more money came in for a book.

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

a. Yes, we are. Being stuck between two large, active, and expansionist empires with big armies has bred into us a sturdy self-reliance and willingness to stand up for what we believe in - which is mostly ourselves, our families, and our clans. The notion of loyalty to a central authority, either Avantha or Ssa'atis, comes a long way down the line. Just like on The Borders...

Priest: "Are there any Christians here?"
Borderer: "Nah, we all be Armstrongs and Maxwells."

Hmm, what's the right answer for "are there any Vimuhlanians here?"

b. Shouldn't be; I think the covers changed, but not the text.

That's actually great! Well, except it seems on closer inspection that it's Tony Bath's other book...
http://www.wargaming.co/recreation/d...bcampaigns.htm

Nothing is perfect, though, but the bright side is, the same site carries a few titles from some Phil Barker.

c. Agreed. The problems seem to come in with the 'middlemen' who have high overheads to pay for. Licenses are a very high-profit, very low-expense source of revenue for a publisher / producer; back in the day, it was a standard clause in all publishing contracts that the author gave up their rights to their IP to their publisher. I caught this in Phil's contract with DAW for "Man of Gold", and Phil renegotiated the contract to keep his "motion picture, television, and dramatic productions" rights.

As a 'fer instance', Heinlein had no say over the production of the 1976 Avalon-Hill "Starship Troopers" game; he hated the artwork, and when an unsuspecting fan handed him a copy for an autograph at the 1976 World Con he threw the game across the room. He had no recourse; his contract with his publisher was the standard one of the time, and while he got a very small percentage of the cover price of the game, the publisher got most of the money, both from the license fee and the royalties.

The publishers justified this by pointing out that the authors were getting larger 'advances' (1) up front for their works, and that the publishers were assuming all of the costs and risks involved in bringing the work to market. Thus, any money they could make off the licenses were their reward for taking these risks. Authors who didn't like the terms could go elsewhere...

Of course, back then there was no 'elsewhere', and an author stood a good chance of being 'blacklisted' and not getting any contracts if they had a reputation for being 'difficult'. Back when I was in fandom, the absolute power that editors and publishers had over authors was astonishing. (It was like Hollywood in the 1920s and 1930s, in a lot of ways.)

These days, of course, the Internet and desktop publishing have completely changed the scene. There is now very little money in the 'traditional' publishing industry, and the emphasis is on mass-market sure-fire hits. The genres are now very small niches in the industry, and are more or less going to the web as that's where they can thrive.

Modern IP holders are, in effect, investment brokers. The big money is in license fees, not publishing.

(1) 'advances' are short for 'advance on royalties'. Quite a few authors were delighted to get a big check for their work from their publisher (less their agents' commission fees. of course) but were then surprised to get more or less nothing afterwards. Any royalties from sales were deducted from the sum of the advance, so it could be years before any more money came in for a book.

Chirine, have I told you how much I like your way of analysing such matters?
Definitely sneak a few of those in your book, at least as endnotes!

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

Agreed. Yes, I have; it's on the shelf right next to the sort-of-maybe 'sequels', the 'McAuslan' series, where Our Hero (A Feckless Young Subaltern) endures having The Dirtiest Soldier In The World under his command. It's a very thinly fictionalized account (in three books) of Frasier's time in the Gordon Highlanders as a young officer, and is - in my opinion - a gold mine of useful adventures for the GM.

Wonderfully funny, full of amazing characters, and loads of possible plots for the PCs to follow up on...

I've read The Complete McAuslan compendium. It's wonderful, and a bit of a mood lightener after Quartered Safe. Both are excellent.

Originally Posted by AsenRG

That's actually great! Well, except it seems on closer inspection that it's Tony Bath's other book...
http://www.wargaming.co/recreation/d...bcampaigns.htm

Read the description carefully.... that's a COMPENDIUM that includes "Setting Up a Wargames Campaign" as part of it.


(Aquarium, Compendium, Laudanum, Totorum... 100Xp to the first person besides Chirine to identify that without Google)

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

As a 'fer instance', Heinlein had no say over the production of the 1976 Avalon-Hill "Starship Troopers" game; he hated the artwork, and when an unsuspecting fan handed him a copy for an autograph at the 1976 World Con he threw the game across the room.

Quite a distance, too.

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

(1) 'advances' are short for 'advance on royalties'. Quite a few authors were delighted to get a big check for their work from their publisher (less their agents' commission fees. of course) but were then surprised to get more or less nothing afterwards. Any royalties from sales were deducted from the sum of the advance, so it could be years before any more money came in for a book.

Yep. In 1982 or 1983 Gordy Dickson said he FINALLY reached the point where royalties paid the bills without needing to live off advances..

Also, the market has gotten even worse if possible. In the mid 80s when Pat Wrede got her start, a typical advance for a first fantasy book was $2500. About 5 years ago Jim Frankel said it's now $2000. And the "Three books in three years, quit your day job" contract simply doesn't exist any more.

IN addition, Frankel and every other editor and author there said they don't even want to hear from somebody who's not already working on a third book. As JF said, "Anybody's got one decent book inside them, but nowadays we don't make any money off a new author at all until the third or fourth book." And they want those books BEFORE the first one is ever published.

Originally Posted by AsenRG

Hmm, what's the right answer for "are there any Vimuhlanians here?"


That's actually great! Well, except it seems on closer inspection that it's Tony Bath's other book...
http://www.wargaming.co/recreation/d...bcampaigns.htm

Nothing is perfect, though, but the bright side is, the same site carries a few titles from some Phil Barker.


Chirine, have I told you how much I like your way of analysing such matters?
Definitely sneak a few of those in your book, at least as endnotes!

"Nah, we's all Itos here."

I had a look at the link you gave; it looks like this is an omnibus edition, and it does seem to have the "Setting Up A Wargames Campaign" in it. And the Phil is Phil's cousin, of course...

Thank you for the kind words! Most of the time, people don't like me doing this kind of commentary because I tend to follow the money and see where it leads. My problem is that I've been around for so long, and usually in the thick of things...

Hmmm. I don't know how much 'analysis' will get into the book; there are points where we do stop and have a think about what it is we're doing, but it always seems to advance the plot. We'll see, I guess. Got another 2,500 words down last night, too...

Originally Posted by Gronan of Simmerya

I've read The Complete McAuslan compendium. It's wonderful, and a bit of a mood lightener after Quartered Safe. Both are excellent.

Agreed. The Burma campaign was not noted for humor value.

As for Dand's adventures, well, they're all true...

Originally Posted by Gronan of Simmerya

Quite a distance, too.



Yep. In 1982 or 1983 Gordy Dickson said he FINALLY reached the point where royalties paid the bills without needing to live off advances..

Also, the market has gotten even worse if possible. In the mid 80s when Pat Wrede got her start, a typical advance for a first fantasy book was $2500. About 5 years ago Jim Frankel said it's now $2000. And the "Three books in three years, quit your day job" contract simply doesn't exist any more.

IN addition, Frankel and every other editor and author there said they don't even want to hear from somebody who's not already working on a third book. As JF said, "Anybody's got one decent book inside them, but nowadays we don't make any money off a new author at all until the third or fourth book." And they want those books BEFORE the first one is ever published.

Yeah, it was a pretty tense moment in the ballroom; I think the con chair managed to smooth things over, I think the game got all reassembled by Bob Asprin and the Dorsai Irregulars, but I could be mis-remembering that; things were pretty frantic for a bit, there...

Yeah, I hear you about the market. It's all about the marketing and license potential, ala "Game of Thrones"...