Thread: Questioning chirine ba kal

Originally Posted by Hrugga

Yes.

Do the Pariah Deities have the amount of power/ability to make stuff happen in Bethorm as the Twenty do?

How big of a presence do the Pariah Deities have on Tekumel? As far as cults and or temples go...

Gij and Sons have the ability to go out to the pylons...Can they also easily cross over into Humanspace as well? G&S seem to be very powerful. What stops them from having a bigger political influence on Tekumel(or do they...)? I need to reread LoT...!!!

Thanks,

H:0)

Well, let's see...

Yes, but to a much more limited extent. They have some very localized 'preserves' where they are dominant, but these are very few and far between and on the farthest fringes of the Five Empires. As we saw in "Man of Gold", they can also be interfered with by devices of the Ancients. The Goddess of the Pale Bone seems to be the most powerful of the set, but The One Other is still a factor in the Five Empires. (See below.) The One Who Is, well, is; we know very, very little about this one. None of the three had any sort of Temple or Priestly organization that we ever saw, or fought against. we did visit the Island of Eyes, where you find the circle-and-dot emblem of the One Other all over everything, but we had to leave in a real hurry - the locals were just not all that keen on us. I am assuming, in game terms, that a follower of one of these three would be able to ask for / roll for Divine Intervention, but it never came up - as far as I know, there was only one Pariah Deity player, and that was in the middling to late 1990s.

Generally, when and if they do act, it's through their followers; it was very, very rare to run into them on a first-hand basis.

In the Five Empires, they have a very, very low density and profile presence. Oddly enough, The One Other does have an 'official' presence in Avanthar, where there are abut a dozen priests and priestesses in residence in a very heavily guarded little temple suite. This seems to have something to do with the functioning of the Kolumeljalim, the choosing of the emperors; they officiate in a part of the ceremonies and rituals that are not open to anyone, including the OAL. This may be also related to their deity's role as the 'moderator' / 'referee' in the Conference of the Gods after the Battle of Dormoron Plain, where the imprisonment of Lord Ksarul was negotiated. (I found the seating plan in the files, much to my astonishment.)

Generally, one can occasionally find Pale Bone people in Underworlds, up to no good, and very rarely in the fringes of civilization, where they are looking after some ancient fane and getting up to yet more no good. One Other people are more rare, and tend to be very neutral and stay out of affairs. The followers of The One Who Is are even more rare, and are normally found only in the Island of Eyes.

Ah, Gij and Sons!

From what little we could find out, they don't go out past the Pylons; they have factors out there as a trading depot, and there seems to be a sort of 'shipping agency' that handles moving the merchandise across the barriers.

They are very powerful, but only in certain ways. They are first and foremost a mercantile organization, and put their own business interests before anything else. Their sealed city of Dlash is in effect an independent city-state, and has been since at least the Empire of Llyan of Tsamra. (Which drives the Livayani crazy, but they can't do anything about it.) Nobody knows an awful lot about what they do in there, and nobody really wants to find out - the Mu'uglavyani dealt with them to get the black anti-magic stones, but had to pay up front for them. It cost the Red-hats all their available cash, which is why the war stuttered and the move into western Tsolyani stalled; not enough of the ready to pay for everything.

And they could not simply move in and take the place over; too risky to have a go, as infantry don't do well against working Lightning Bringers.

Nobody, but nobody, messes around with either Gij or the Syndics of Dlash. It's just too risky.

They do tend to stay out of 'local' politics, as they look at it. They generally deal in only the rare and exotic, and only items of the finest quality and highest price. They will sell to any and all 'sides' in any conflict, but their prices are on a par with the difficulty of getting across the barriers between universes.

About the only 'local' that Gij and Sons deals with regularly is dear old Captain Harchar, but this - I suspect - is due to Harchar owning a device that lets him move himself, his merry crew of 'honest seafaring merchants', and his ship between the worlds. He's very useful to the firm for moving things around, and also for giving them access to several of the other pocket universes that Harchar knows about. They respect each other, and trust each other as far as they can throw Avanthar. Harchar sells the rare and exotic to them, and they sell much the same back to him.

Need a bucket of Flame Opals, for example? Gij and Sons just happen to have a source for them, and Harchar delivers...

Does this help?

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

Very cool that your wife is such a great reader! Congratulations!

And your last point may be right on track, from what I saw on Sunday when the tour group came through the game room...

Well, I'm more glad she's grasping systems fast.

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

I hate to ask this, but what's the 'politically incorrect barrier'? I mean, I see things like the "Are Orcs Racist?" thread go by, but I don't have any real grasp on what the issues are. Which probably makes me sexist, racist, culturalist, nationalist, regionalist, ageist, lookist, ableist, sizeist, speciesist, intellectualist, socioeconomicist, ethnocentrist, phallocentrist, heteropatriarchalist, or other type of bias as yet unnamed. It's like the current fashion for LGBT inclusion in games; back in the day, we didn't care much about it or worried about who was and wasn't LGBT; we just got on with the game, and tried to stay alive. These days, I feel like I have to ask new players for their Official LGBT Certification papers in order to be able to let them play...

Anyway...

Whether or not our opponents were human or not never did seem to make much difference in our game play; either they were out to kill us, or we'd be able to negotiate something with them. Human or non-human, we'd work kind of hard at not getting into fights with them; melees very quickly got deadly, especially against heavy-duty beings like the Shen or Ahoggya, and as a matter of simple survival we'd try to find a way not to have to start slaughtering people. We spoke a lot of languages, and we could usually find a common tongue to communicate with people we ran into.

"Oh, too bad, your PC is dead, roll up another one" was not the way we played; we thought that our 'win' was from keeping our PCs alive, and moving them along their career paths. Tekumel is a very deadly place, especially if you go off the beaten path, and simple survival was a very big deal. In the Underworlds, combat was pretty common, as most of what we faced was not sapient and not open to discussion; same in the 'wilderness' areas. If we faced a sentient life-form, of whatever variety, we'd try to talk them out of killing us, and we usually managed to work out a pretty reasonable deal with them. We didn't kill them, they didn't kill us, and everybody walked away from the situation alive. That may sound kinda dull, but it did very - very, very! - often lead to much more exciting adventures, where the people (again, of all species) would suggest that we might want to have a look at something that had been giving them trouble, and maybe deal with the problem for them. (For a suitable reward, of course.)

Getting into combat was not a common thing with us, and when it was it was A Very Big Deal. It should be kept in mind that we'd played these same PCs for years, and we felt we had a vested interest in keeping them alive. When we did go into combat, we did so very hard, very fast, and very, very much out to win. We pulled no punches whatsoever, and even in the early days of the campaign we got a well-deserved reputation for being ruthless killers if we were provoked. This, in turn, led us into yet more interesting adventures, as having a squad of ruthless killers who were quick, fast, and clever was considered to be A Very Good Thing to have around by a great many people who could make it worth our while to put ourselves into danger on their behalf.

I killed a lot of people, of all kinds, over the years. I also worked with and for a lot more people, again of all kinds, as well. On the whole, the latter out-numbered the former, and everybody walked away with something nice.

Does any of this help, at all?

You know what I'm getting out of it?
I'll need to tell my players that most of them Are Playing It Right.
Funny how different influences can lead to the same place. (I suspect that with them, it was being made to read The Six Ways To Avoid A Fight and playing in modern-world settings where Killing Is Bad For Business that's a primary influence to get to that playstyle. That, and I'm playing systems where the mightiest warrior can die if shot on a failed defence roll).

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

I certainly can talk about this forever, which would probably bore you to tears; let me say that one of the really wonderful things about gaming with Phil was having a front-row seat for the creative process as he developed and refined what he wanted to do. It was like out time with Gordy Dickson; we had a front row seat for the Dorsai, too...

Can you be more specific? Which particular mystery do you have in mind?

Can you tell us more about GD? The Dorsai are an interesting series, I quite like the first couple of books.

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

Understood. "NAKED! THEY'RE NAKED!"; "OMG! LESBIANS!"; etc. I used to have to deal with this a lot at conventions; Tekumel used to be considered the 'naughty' world-setting...

Ah! Gotcha! Yeah, the XP thing is something that Phil pretty much ignored after about the first two or three years of play. We'd just do the mission, survive, and get rewarded with ranks and position - which would also bring in the cash, with which we'd buy / learn new spells and skills. Phil would just do it off the top of his head, but I agree - coming up with a way to simulate this in a modern game is going to take some thought.

We'd usually hire a tutor or somebody, and then take a six-month 'vacation' in the game to pick up something new. Once we'd gotten that, it was back to the adventures...

The first time one of my players asked me if he could 'level up' I had no idea what he was talking about...

I tend to do the number-crunching in my head, and then tell the player what they have to work with. It keeps the game going, and seems to work out pretty well.

1) You mean there are non-naughty settings? What are people doing in them?

2) The part about tutors and downtime? It's pure Traveller. And I know I've mentioned Traveller, but that's more to prove that yes, you can have a game without XP!
Although in all fairness, my houserule for Traveller is to note successful and unsuccessful uses of all skills, by skill. You need to have them in order to be allowed to roll for learning a skill...by a tutor. (Or you can make the same roll, but needing more downtime and more checks, to discover it yourself).
One day I'm going to run Traveller with this game. I can predict the sweet screams of the powerplayers!
(I'm a kind of powerplayer, too, and unashamed of it. But my kind of powerplaying is being a Tactician, and the more restrictions, the better I feel when I manage working around all of them).

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

Which is very cool! I wonder why this never seemed to get any attention from people?

Well, RuneQuest fans already has a quirky, well-developed world to play in, don't they? And one where info is much easier to find than it is for Tekumel.

Originally Posted by Greentongue

I think that from the descriptions Chirine ba Kal is giving, Savage Worlds would be a good fit.
I actually fooled around with doing so.
Needed a bit more experience in both.

May I give you an advice?
Take the Savage Worlds Deluxe, Savage Worlds Mars (by Adamant), and you're more than halway there. The powers list might require some work, but you can do that on a case by case basis.
(If you want to make your life even easier, swipe the lifepaths from Beyond the Wall and re-work them for SW and Tekumel. The two main things are your Temple, and your Clan. Best of all, you only need to flesh out the Powers/Spells that appear on the lifepaths).

Admittedly, I'm currently thinking that the best solution might be to rework Maelstrom Domesday's system. But then I usually prefer more low-key systems.

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

On the other had, Jeff Dee's "Bethorm" is about as close as you'll get to what Phil probably intended with S&G. I played in a game of it with him, and I though that it was a very good analog to what Phil was doing in his games - when he bothered with rules at all, which was always happening with him...

Personally, I'll always prefer EPT, with S&G's spells; again, this is what "bethorm" does a good job with.

I'm really glad to hear that. It means there's at least two decent game introductions for Tekumel that are available (the original 1975 EPT, and the Bethorm).
Given that the fan-made rule systems vary from RQ variants to anything you can think of, maybe your book would make more people interested in the setting. Which would be a good thing.

You know, Tekumel's mild semi-nudity really reflects American history.

In 1976 it wasn't that big a deal; Eldrich Wizardry had a nude woman on the cover, and the Monster Manual showed several monsters from mythology (succubus, harpy, lamia, sphinx) that were part naked woman. The 1976 World SF convention had a stripper as halftime entertainment at the masquerade (though there was more nudity IN the masquerade), and KC was picked because the hotel allowed skinny dipping in the pool after dark (which was one of the requirements for the convention.) Virtually any person at a SF con or SCA event would get propositioned multiple times a day by people of either sex, and by 1974 it was already a cliche at Star Trek cons to "paint your tits green and go to the masquerade as an Orion slave girl".

American society took an enormous jump to the prudish in the 1980s and we've been accelerating that way ever sense, it seems. Both men and women wore costumes at cons in the 70s that I think would probably get you arrested now.

Originally Posted by AsenRG

You know what I'm getting out of it?
I'll need to tell my players that most of them Are Playing It Right.
Funny how different influences can lead to the same place. (I suspect that with them, it was being made to read The Six Ways To Avoid A Fight and playing in modern-world settings where Killing Is Bad For Business that's a primary influence to get to that playstyle. That, and I'm playing systems where the mightiest warrior can die if shot on a failed defence roll).

Can you tell us more about GD? The Dorsai are an interesting series, I quite like the first couple of books.

1) You mean there are non-naughty settings? What are people doing in them?

2) The part about tutors and downtime? It's pure Traveller. And I know I've mentioned Traveller, but that's more to prove that yes, you can have a game without XP!

I'm really glad to hear that. It means there's at least two decent game introductions for Tekumel that are available (the original 1975 EPT, and the Bethorm).
Given that the fan-made rule systems vary from RQ variants to anything you can think of, maybe your book would make more people interested in the setting. Which would be a good thing.

Let me take a run at this...

Yes, I'd agree with you on your players, given the way we played. Survival was our goal most of the time, pure and simple.

I could talk about Gordy for hours. Where would you like me to start? The time I saved his book collection in his basement from the flood? Or on writing? I'm afraid you'll have to be more specific...

1). Yes. Pretty much all of the early games were a lot 'cleaner' then Tekumel was thought to be.

2) Precisely. Couldn't agree more, myself.

Yep, I'm hoping that my account of our adventures will introduce Tekumel to people; one can only hope...

Originally Posted by Hrugga

Yes, a big help!!! You even made the mysteries of Tekumel seem not so mysterious!!!

Speaking of Dlash...Certain courtesans have powers(the voice)akin to the Bene Gesserit "witches" in FH's Dune. Are there other mental powers that you know of that Dlashi women may learn? Was this a homage to Dune by the Professor?

Thanks,

H :0)

I don't know if it was a shout-out to Dune, but I do know that it's a shout-out to Merritt, Howard, and their fellow 'pulp' writers. Traditionally in the 'heroic Fantasy' genre, women are more 'magical' then men; Phil used this in a number of ways, but cast it in the context of his Lords of Humanspace - who, I keep wanting to emphasize, were not nice people. If somebody developed traits talents, or abilities that they found useful, those people were bred to each other to enhance and increase those abilities. The Nylss, the Nom, and the natural telepaths of both 'lost' Bayarsha (You can have the place, thank you!) and the Nyemsel Isles are all examples of this. Go back into the pulps for more of this, too.

So, yes, the Dlashi make sure that women who have useful abilities get preferential treatment - if not, perhaps, their choices of mates! In game terms, you can expect to see all the classic 'psychic'/'psionic' (or whatever these things are called these days) being used in special circumstances as they might be needed to further the interests of the Syndics. Telepathy, telekinesis, etc. have all been seen in action over the years, and we've learned to be very cautious when dealing with anyone who seems to have any connection with Dlash. The men don't seem to have anywhere nearly the same range of abilities or strength, though...

Originally Posted by Gronan of Simmerya

You know, Tekumel's mild semi-nudity really reflects American history.

In 1976 it wasn't that big a deal; Eldrich Wizardry had a nude woman on the cover, and the Monster Manual showed several monsters from mythology (succubus, harpy, lamia, sphinx) that were part naked woman. The 1976 World SF convention had a stripper as halftime entertainment at the masquerade (though there was more nudity IN the masquerade), and KC was picked because the hotel allowed skinny dipping in the pool after dark (which was one of the requirements for the convention.) Virtually any person at a SF con or SCA event would get propositioned multiple times a day by people of either sex, and by 1974 it was already a cliche at Star Trek cons to "paint your tits green and go to the masquerade as an Orion slave girl".

American society took an enormous jump to the prudish in the 1980s and we've been accelerating that way ever sense, it seems. Both men and women wore costumes at cons in the 70s that I think would probably get you arrested now.

Mmmm. I think I agree with your point, but maybe with a minor clarification or two.

F/SF fandom, in our day, was very influenced by the 'counter-culture' at the time; fandom before and after the war was a lot more conservative and a lot more 'strait-laced' then what it became in the very late Sixties and early to middle Seventies. Nudity at conventions was very common then, as a way of "freaking the mundanes" - a lot of it was for the shock value, from what I saw. What one could do then was, as you point out, a lot different then what you could do now and not get a huge reaction on the Internet. That, in turn, is what drives a lot of the 'outrage factor' that we see today, where anything and everything is going to get a very mixed response.

Could we do those kinds of costumes at conventions today? No. The boredom reaction set in pretty early, especially after Tim and Otter Zell's series of non-costumes. Costumers, as a genre, got bored with the notion, and moved on to the much more elaborate costumes we saw developing in the early 1980s. "No costume is no costume", as The Masquerade Handbook says...

Tekumel / EPT had lots of nekked people, for that time and place, and stuff that was not mainstream at the time. Now, it's pretty tame in comparison to what you can find anywhere on the net.

What I think we're looking at is a shift in the way people communicate - remember the guy out in front of Coffman who told us that we were all going to go to Hell for being college students? His son has now taken up the mantle, but you can read his stuff on his website - more people look at their smart phones then they do at him.

These days, the people who might have been offended by the illustrations back then have the web to express their outrage; from what I see in my daily life, a lot of what we saw back in the day in fandom would get a bored yawn, especially in comparison with what they are seeing on YouTube.

My gut feeling is that the signal to noise ratio on the Internet is the big shift that you describe; the shift in real life - at least in the small slice of it that I see every day - is more the opposite.

Don't know, I guess. I just keep soldiering on...

Originally Posted by Hrugga

Bring us back from the brink Glorious General!!! Soon we won't even be able to ask questions about the old days of Tekumel...

H :0)

Yep. I have found that Europeans are a lot less attuned to skin then a lot of Americans are, which I think has something to do with Our Founders were the ones who got kicked out of Europe for being the ones who could not get along with everyone. (See also the "Quicksilver" trilogy for a very good, and very funny look at this subject.)

These days, it's all about "maintaining the brand identity" and being all -inclusive, it seems. And it can go to far; I had a guest GM in last month who ran a very 'age-inappropriate' session, and I was not pleased. The session would have been fine with adults playing, but did not go over well with the junior high-school and high-school aged players we had. All I wanted was for the guest GM to ask the players first, but he let his activism get in the way of consideration.

Can I say anything to him? I don't know - I'd be accused of some sort of 'anti-ism' bias and prejudice if I did, I fear. And that sort of chilling effect is not a good thing, if you ask my opinion...

Ah, yes, the Internet.

"The Internet, the Internet, what happened to the Internet," to paraphrase Danny Kaye.

The Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory is true.
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19

Further, before the Internet every village had its idiot, but now they gather at VillageIdiots.Com and support each other. The "Bandar-Log" factor.

Further, the trend that C.S. Lewis noted way back in "Screwtape Proposes a Toast" has intensified as people apply "democracy" not to a system of voting, but to the notion that all opinions are equally valid.