Thread: Questioning chirine ba kal - part II

Originally Posted by bconsidine

Shemek, Chirine

Thanks for the responses. I'll look at the link.

Blaise

Glad to help.

Originally Posted by David Johansen

I think it was a mistake to do metal casting in house. It's labor intensive and I feel the management needs a strong understanding of the market and process for it to work at all. They should have contracted out plastics. I know the costs are high but I expect they're no higher than getting a couple spin casters, a vulcanizer, crucible, proper ventilation hoods, and good metal. Heritage did it. I'm not sure how they managed, I'm sure they were never as big as TSR. If you make things interchangeable, doing separate heads and weapon hands (not a big fan of open hands) actually makes it easier. The problem is that you need volume sales with plastics and won't have quite the same variety though, a little interchangeability goes a long way. Games Workshop used to do lots of figures that were just head swaps of other figures. Oh well, long past now. I love metal figures but I always feel plastic is a better choice for big companies.

I cannot speak to today.

Back in 1980 or so, however, soft metal production was orders of magnitude cheaper than plastic injection molding.

Hell, Chirine probably still has the cost analysis we did.

Originally Posted by Gronan of Simmerya

I cannot speak to today.

Back in 1980 or so, however, soft metal production was orders of magnitude cheaper than plastic injection molding.

Hell, Chirine probably still has the cost analysis we did.

Why, yes, I do...

One thing to remember is that the plastics industry of today bears little relation to the one of the late 1970s and early 1980s. As was mentioned, the major cost in plastics is the mold, which can now be set up in one computer, and the file sent to a second one that runs the milling machine. Back then, you had to have a very skilled human do the mold, and you would have no idea if the thing would actually work until the first shot. As me dear old dad pointed out to a couple of engineers at his company after they'd designed a mold for a part: "Nice work. You've cost the company about two and half million dollars, because you've designed in traps so you can't get the part out of the mold. It'll make a nice doorstop, though."

Soft metal casting is a mature and relatively cheap technology, that any moderately intelligent person can do in their garage. (Like me, as Gronan can tell you.) Initial costs at the time were about $10,000 all up, as opposed to several hundred thousand per mold for plastics and you still have the costs of the rest of the technology.

Yes, Heritage did plastics. It destroyed the company with overwhelming debt load. (Wargames Factory and Defiance Games also come to mind.) There simply is not the economy of scale in the game hobby to support the kind of things that GW does - to be brutally realistic, they are the only 'big company' in the industry, and are a prime example of both vertical integration and market demographic churn. The various companies selling plastics these days are able to survive due to the incredible lowering of the costs of mold-making, as well as the availability of cheap time on molding machines. There's a reason why most of the gaming plastics are coming out in the UK, and why most of the sprues are being done by one company - and why, I would venture to guess, the sprues all are coming from a set of six molding machines being run constantly in a factory in the same city. If I was the owner of those six machines, you'd better believe I'd be running my direct competition's molds at good rates rates - I want to amortize my investment, and pay my staff.

Anybody remember the relationship between Monarch and Avalon-Hill?

There are maybe five - six 'indie' operations casting their own miniatures, here in the US. The vast majority of what you see in the FLGS comes from one of the two dominant contract casters. If - the gods forbid!!! - I'd ever going to do my own line of miniatures, I'd use a contract caster and save a ton of money.

Sorry about getting carried away; this is a pet topic of mine...

If you started talking about doing your own line of miniatures, I think I'd persuade your wife and daughters to make you lie down in a comfortable dimly lit place with a cool cloth on your forehead until the urge went away.

Originally Posted by Gronan of Simmerya

If you started talking about doing your own line of miniatures, I think I'd persuade your wife and daughters to make you lie down in a comfortable dimly lit place with a cool cloth on your forehead until the urge went away.

Oh, yes, very much agreed. Been there, done that, and lost my interest in miniatures for over twenty years. Heck, you can see in the collection where I stopped and gave up and where I got started again a decade ago.

Nope; other people do a much better job then I can, and they do nice figures. Howard and his Tekumel Project, the reborn Ral Partha, Jim Ludwig and Dark Sword, Mike Burns and Dark Fable, David Soderberg and Bronze Age. The 'Legend of Cleopatra' figures arrived Tuesday and are in assembly; their Roman opponents are all built. Primer tomorrow or Sunday. I am a very happy camper!

Well, about ten years ago Rendra quoted me $200000 for a 12 figure mould, four years ago Wargames Factory quoted me $10000. Sadly, while they still do production for kickstarters, Wargames Factory is no more.

I've done RTV moulds and plaster moulds myself with limited success and I've got the burns to show for it. Top tip, if you use plasticine masters in a plaster mould they'll hold moisture in the plaster for over a year and you'll get a lovely jet of molten metal to dodge.

I'm taking another swing at it. I'm going to use gasket RTV instead of catalyzed and my home brewed spin caster. I hope to have a few figures available for sale and build little by little. I've got 54mm pirates, sci-fi people, modern people, Harry Potter kids, and a bunch of half finished fantasy stuff sculpted. I'm using JB Weld for plastic, because green stuff is expensive and if I get some in at the store it sells fast and I need sales and profits, also, the JB Weld is workable for about 5 minutes and hard in 15 and is thus quite a bit faster to work with.

Why? Mostly because I like 54mm and want some for myself. I'm well aware that I'm not a professional sculptor or caster. But some people have expressed interest. Anyhow, I'm aware of three companies that produce miniatures in house here in Canada and I'd bet there are a few small casters doing their own metal down south there. Zombie Smith does it with a home made caster and vulcanizer but I'm not sure if he's in the states or UK.

But, yes plastics are around three orders of magnitude more expensive per figure. I still think they make more sense for larger companies. Labor and shop space are more expensive than hardware in the long term.

Originally Posted by David Johansen

Well, about ten years ago Rendra quoted me $200000 for a 12 figure mould, four years ago Wargames Factory quoted me $10000. Sadly, while they still do production for kickstarters, Wargames Factory is no more.

I've done RTV moulds and plaster moulds myself with limited success and I've got the burns to show for it. Top tip, if you use plasticine masters in a plaster mould they'll hold moisture in the plaster for over a year and you'll get a lovely jet of molten metal to dodge.

I'm taking another swing at it. I'm going to use gasket RTV instead of catalyzed and my home brewed spin caster. I hope to have a few figures available for sale and build little by little. I've got 54mm pirates, sci-fi people, modern people, Harry Potter kids, and a bunch of half finished fantasy stuff sculpted. I'm using JB Weld for plastic, because green stuff is expensive and if I get some in at the store it sells fast and I need sales and profits, also, the JB Weld is workable for about 5 minutes and hard in 15 and is thus quite a bit faster to work with.

Why? Mostly because I like 54mm and want some for myself. I'm well aware that I'm not a professional sculptor or caster. But some people have expressed interest. Anyhow, I'm aware of three companies that produce miniatures in house here in Canada and I'd bet there are a few small casters doing their own metal down south there. Zombie Smith does it with a home made caster and vulcanizer but I'm not sure if he's in the states or UK.

But, yes plastics are around three orders of magnitude more expensive per figure. I still think they make more sense for larger companies. Labor and shop space are more expensive than hardware in the long term.

Agreed on your points - a truly large company can and probably should do plastics, but there are not that many that can qualify for that niche in today's market. The UK cluster is unique to the time and place, and the existing level of production capacity in that particular spot.

54mm! I salute you, sir! Having started my gaming career in that scale, I think it's wonderful, and wish you all possible success!

Originally Posted by tekumelcollecting

I've done another post on www.tekumelcollecting.com This one is on Tékumel languages. Have a look and I'd welcome comments.

Had a look, last night, while the infantry cured in the gluing rig; very well researched and presented, and well worth a look.

Incidentally, have you ever seen Prodos Games resin injection moulding system?

http://prodosgames.com/blog/prodos-unicast-is-here

It's very interesting in that the rubber mould fits into a steel block that goes in an injection moulding system.