Thread: Questioning chirine ba kal - part II

Originally Posted by AsenRG

Yeah, Uncle, but I still had to ask. After all, sometimes the people we hate most are those that are like us, but different in one or few crucial details!


Smart choice, though most GMs today would expect something similar.



Surprised me the first time it happened, too. Then I adapted.
After all, even if you don't have your own scam, your soldiering might run afoul of other people's scams and, as a smart character says, "mayhem is sure to ensue"!

All very true, and I'd agree with you on the sheer novelty in some circles of all of them...

Originally Posted by Gronan of Simmerya

Like the time we "borrowed" a crate of crossbow bolts being shipped to Qutmu's legion. popped the lid open, and a Mrur sat up and said "Hello, sailor!"

Oi! I made sure that the paper work was in order - we had an Imperial requisition, signed by Prince Mirusiya himself, which is why I had to report to him the discrepancy in the goods on the invoice being different then the good actually shipped.

Heh. Heh, heh, heh. Fixed Qutmu's chlen cart we did, real good.

Originally Posted by Big Andy

I know you and Gronan both ended up with armies at your fingertips, but before that, how many henchmen/hired swords did the party have with them, roughly? Most newer players don't get the whole henchman/mercenary thing in Greyhawk/Blackmoor in general for some reason. And in a like manner, picture a standard 6 man party wandering through the Underworlds or into the wilds of Tekumel.

So, not only were they not crossbow bolts, the mrur were for the Navy, not an Army legion.

Let's see; the first couple of years were doing a lot of underworld crawls, and we normally had six to eight PCs and usually a dozen troopers from somebody's legion moon-lighting (they got paid extra) as extra muscle. They bashed things, and the PCs were usually the magic-users. Off to the Southern Continent, and it was the PCs with Vidlakte's squad of hired marines and Harchar's crew as back-up in case of trouble. Then we did the military adventure up on the NW Frontier, and Gronan had three cohorts under his personal command with the players as staff MUs and general hangers-on. Second voyage after that, same crewing, which made invading Mihallu kinda risky. NE Frontier campaign, Gronan's legion, with the usual PC's attached. Hekellu onwards, me and my PC party, with what infantry we picked up along the way. Malchairan adventure, just the PC's

The players in Phil's games did all the heavy lifting; the hired troopers were there mostly to pick up the pieces when things went badly. I normally ran the troops, and the rest of the party got most of the 'face time' with Phil doing stuff. We usually had just ourselves for most adventures, especially after the split - we just didn't have the money or pull to get a lot of troops for personal adventures until we got higher up in the government.

Interesting comment about D&D players. We had people hired, back in the day, but the convention / custom of the house was that we the players did everything, and the mercenaries were there to watch our backs for us. Same thing with torchbearers and the like; we did the work, and they stood around and carried the loot for us.

Does this help, at all?

I've noticed that hiring mercenaries has all but vanished. Boggles me; if you're first level, coughing up 5 gold each in advance and 5 after for two or three lads and lasses with long spear and chainmail can make all the difference.

Of course I've also noticed most players nowadays have no notion that long spears can attack from the second rank. What DO they teach children in school these days?

Originally Posted by Gronan of Simmerya

I've noticed that hiring mercenaries has all but vanished. Boggles me; if you're first level, coughing up 5 gold each in advance and 5 after for two or three lads and lasses with long spear and chainmail can make all the difference.

Of course I've also noticed most players nowadays have no notion that long spears can attack from the second rank. What DO they teach children in school these days?

Just back home after playing in the 5E campaign at the FLGS; some troops would have been very useful, as the party's low-level PCs got hit very hard by the critters and stuff that we ran into. One poor player, who's first game this was, got killed twice.

And a lot of the tactical assumptions, like your comment about spears, simply don't apply in 5e as the game mechanics don't have a way to deal with them - so they are out. One kind and one only of 'shield', with one numerical factor; no historical information seems to be applied. One can fire spells into melee, ignoring the chance of hitting one's comrades. Lots of stuff like this that I saw today, and which are causing me some concerns about my future participation.

We'll see, I guess.

I've secretly been calling 5e "D&D For Whiners" for a long time now.

Originally Posted by David Johansen

I've secretly been calling 5e "D&D For Whiners" for a long time now.

I'm afraid it fits.

Originally Posted by Hermes Serpent

This means that even if the 5e game had rules for using length weapons from the second rank they wouldn't understand how that would work or why. At least i suppose we, in the UK, get re-enactors running around muddy fields every summer pretending to be Roundheads or Cavaliers and they can see someone waving a long stick about but as safety rules mean that the 'push of pike' is actually hold the pike straight up in the air and push like a rugby scrum it hardly really counts.

Agreed on all these points, but in the end, I don't have issues with the manner in which people want to run their games. Doing crazy, impossible stunts like the ones you see in, say, "Wonder Woman", or fighting enemies as they do in the Lord of the Rings films or most fantasy adventures (D&D stuff, etc.), that is, with no discussion of tactics at all ("Just charge!"), or actually trying to avoid fights until the moment you can't anymore which is when you come up with a way to improve your tactical position: all these approaches are fine with me (i.e. with the right group of players and the right game referee).
But because my time is limited and because of the old been-there-done-that thing, I sure will gravitate towards games where the referee and players are interested in making each game specific, filled with good, well thought-out details, in the narration, the tactics, etc.

Details: that's where most games fail I think. Details. Not as a way to overwhelm your players with information, to show them how knowledgeable you are or whatever, but as a way to make your world feel more real, more thought-through and therefore less generic.

Thinking about the moments. Thinking about narrative beats. Thinking about what's evocative (which can totally be about how to think tactically, like how to use a two-handed spear). This approach helps create a tone or a mood too, which, in my experience goes a long way towards making the games you play memorable.
A decent narrator and decent players interested in details will be able to make almost any generic adventure feel special and unique, whether the game session is tactically oriented, or not, etc.