Thread: Questioning chirine ba kal - part II

Originally Posted by Greentongue

In EPT impalement is front and center.
While I can see this in the big cities where relationships are not so close family how does it work in the rural areas where it is your second cousin that would get impaled?
How often is exile used instead?
If exile is used, is it common but less talked about?
If not exile, what is a likely punishment in place of impalement?
Yeah, I can see, you screw up enough to get the government's attention, family or no family you're taking the High Ride.
Still, something should be available to save the favorites, has been my experience in the real world.
=

EPT follows Phil's interest in the ancient world, where prisons were not all that common; death or working the guilty to death in the mines or something was the norm. Prisons in Tsolyanu are usually for political prisoners, people you might have a need for later and so are useful as living poker chips in the game of empire. Shamtla, the payment of 'blood money' was what we saw a lot of in Phil's games but this was deemed too complex for gamers to understand by the editor / publisher, who like to keep things simple.

As you say, impalement is for screwing up big time, and is usually reserved for idiots who fail at their social relationships.

Out in the countryside, it's pretty rare; first off, most rural people don't screw up badly enough to attract Imperial attention (as Gronan points out), and secondly the clan has a lot more in the way of 'internal sanctions' to use - perpetual manure spreading on the farm comes to mind. A good thumping is also useful. Exile, not so much, but it's not unheard of - it does get rid of the idiot, and there are plenty of noble ways to get rid of somebody - like sending them off to enlist in the legion that the clan supports. Or, sending them off to the rich relations in the big city to be part of the next underworld adventure. Lots of possibilities that will either kill or cure.

Does this help, at all?

Originally Posted by Gronan of Simmerya

In big cities, wealth and power ALWAYS have the advantage to save the favorites.

In rural areas, it's easy. Remember, the Imperium doesn't have a cohort of OAL in every mud hut village; for the Imperium to summon the impalers, they must hear about the crime first.

This; all very true.

Originally Posted by Big Andy

With regards to underworlds, Jakalla looks very dense, lots of stuff crammed onto the sheet. In Man of Gold, the various underworlds described do not seem so densely packed, with lots of walking around, down long tunnels/caverns, down a level then up a couple then back down, etc., to get anywhere and certainly more "empty", giving a different feel from what Jakalla looks like. Is that just a difference between the various underworlds or just a change in the way Prof Barker played? I know MoG was written what 8-10 years after he first rolled out Jakalla. You said that later Prof Barker would sort of skip to the good parts, making the lots of empty but still dangerous areas with torturous routes from the books seem to be where he ended up.

How do you represent the Food of the Ssu on your tabletop? Don't think I've ever seen it on your workbench and I've also come to believe you have a mini or a model for everything!

Well, a lot of Phil's Jakalla underworld map is actually the way it's described in MoG; there are a lot of 'empty' areas, where about all you'd meet are the classic 'wandering monsters' or the work party described in the novel. Jakalla played by Phil was a lot like the novel; lots of walking in the dark, poking at things, and punctuated by moments of sheer terror. So, while the map looks very busy, it's actually pretty much as described; the keyed locations where stuff is happening are pretty widely separated from each other - it's a huge map, remember. And yes, after a while Phil would gloss over the dull parts, and try to get us right to the Dire Peril as soon as he could.

Oh, sorry; I'll have to shoot some photos. I use various plastic plant parts from the crafts stores, which are indestructible by players and come molded in all sorts of nasty purple shades. I glue these to bases, to give little clumps of the horrible stuff, and players have learned to look before they leap. Quick, cheap, and easy.

And yes, as Gronan can tell you, I do take a sort of perverse pride in having a miniature or model of anything and everything. I started doing that a long time ago - ask Gronan about Mos Eisley or my platoon of Slammers - and I still do it. (Which is why there are over 5,000 miniatures and models in the game room, I would guess.) Hanging out with Phil was no help at all - he was just as bad as I was about this, and had the carving skills to do it as well. I am a very, very strong believer in the 'What you See Is What You Get' school of game play - it's given us years of fun!

[Tell 'em about the land mines in the SF game with Fred, my General! ]

I still remember the farting, fainting, and falling down that happened the day I started running a SF infantry miniatures skirmish and Chirine's Slammers blew their way on the table...

Ach mid der schreamin', und ach mid der shoutin'.

Originally Posted by Greentongue

Yes, it foes.

What are these work gangs like in the city and how are they different from slaves.

I image that "slaves" are more the Roman version of people that are indentured servants than what modern people think of.
Am I right? Are there distinguishing marks on slaves but otherwise they are basically "the poorer family members"?

Are there chain gangs and such?
Which are treated worse?
=

Work gangs vary by how wretched the workers are. Condemned prisoners are often chained up together; 'indentured workers' and simple poor people normally are not, as they don't get fed or paid unless they are present. An empty belly is a powerful inducement to show up for work, no matter how squalid the work may be. Slaves are usually not chained up, as the penalties for running away are usually slow death, slower death, and really slow death. They'll be escorted by an overseer, just as other workers will have a supervisor with them. Prisoners will have this as well as an armed guard, to make sure that they don't get away and are properly mistreated.

Slave are slaves, either by birth or by enslavement through debt. The usual mark of a slave is a bronze collar - usually of the cheapest metal! - with the owner's name and clan cast into it. ("Reward offered for return, etc.") In a good clan, the slaves are usually well-treated and considered part of the clan; they may have been in the clan for several generations, as we've noted in this discussion. Lower-status slaves are usually not as well treated; if you saw the HBO "Rome" or "Spartacus" episodes, they'll give you a pretty good idea of how the various social strata of slaves are treated. There's a very real difference between them, usually based on their occupation. Again, the concept of 'Noble Action' comes into play; mistreating your slaves does get you talked about, and not invited to the right parties. You'll get cold-shouldered at parties, too.

My leaden alter-ego is considered slightly eccentric by Tsolyani and others because he does not own any slaves. At all. All of his domestic staff are paid employees, and have contracts covering their terms of employment. He prefers to earn the trust and respect of his people, and he looks after them carefully; he has very strong self-imposed rules on how to deal with them, and he sticks to them. I'd venture to say that this is possibly because having put down one very messy slave revolt, he has no intention of putting down another.

Originally Posted by Gronan of Simmerya

I still remember the farting, fainting, and falling down that happened the day I started running a SF infantry miniatures skirmish and Chirine's Slammers blew their way on the table...

Ach mid der schreamin', und ach mid der shoutin'.

And it probably didn't help that Gronan played it to the hilt, telling the opposition that they could hear the approaching rumble of something - they didn't bother to use their sensors, so the sight of three massive armored hover-tanks with energy cannon roaring onto the board came as a complete shock. Then, some fool took a pot-shot at the lead tank in the wedge, and discovered just what is meant by the phrases 'massively armored' and 'heavily armed'.

Not a bad day. No, not at all. People were much more respectful in campaigns after that battle, especially after my armored infantry platoon rolled on in support of the blowers in their tracked carriers. Then Gronan mentioned the off-board self-propelled guns, with their 200mm L/175 tubes firing Armor Piercing Discarding Sabot Fin Stabilized smart rounds at hypersonic velocities with programmable internal terminal guidance.

Battle computers in the command tracks and blowers are wonderful things. So are orbital sensors, for those over-the-horizon deflection shots.

As Gronan once told a player, "Don't rile him up; you won't like the results."

Wanna meet my legion of Vimuhla fanatics? Pikes by North Star in the UK, and very seriously dangerous to handle if one is careless...

It was years of gaming with Chirine that taught me the important military maxim "Don't fuck around."

If you're going to commit force, commit enough force to do the job. Unlike, for instance, the poor kids that the US has hung out to dry in the Middle East.

Honored Uncles, I have yet more questions...

N'luss, Pe Choi, and Shen (oh my).. and other 'non humans' - where they ever popular with the players? It seems that Tekumel from a gaming perspective was very human-centric. Given the importance of social relationships this makes a bit of sense, the 'alien races' where actually 'alien' after all.

N'luss, being 'bred' from humans originally, would seem to have no issues socially with other humans (other than the obvious drastic difference in size!). How are they regarded in polite society? Assuming they are accustomed to civilized lands. Are they regarded as 'pretty much the same as us' ? Would someone from Tsolyanu regard a N'luss similar to the way they regard someone from Livyanu?

Reading a bit about the Pe Choi - it almost seems to hint at some kind of greater 'connection' between all Pe Choi that they are now cut off from - perhaps hinting at some kind of low level psychic ability across the species. Was there anything ever hinted at this in the game or is it my imagination running amok again?