Thread: Questioning chirine ba kal - part II

Originally Posted by Zirunel

Sometimes it seems to me, people are so obsessed with stressing the "alien" "non-western" character of Tekumel (oh look, Mayans in space!) that they downplay the huge classical Hellenistic/Imperial-Roman Mediterranean elements in the Professor's grand pastiche. It's a mashup sure, with a lot of ingredients, but much of it really isn't as "non-western" as some people pretend.

I feel the same.

To me, the unique languages play a big part in making the world feel more alien and bizarre than it actually is. As a mental exercise, replace the Tsolyani words and names with Western Europe sounding ones. You'll notice that things don't feel so weird anymore.

Originally Posted by Zirunel

Ah, I understand now, thanks

You're welcome! Game design / writing was always a sideline with Phil - if he wasn't strongly interested, he wasn't interested. When he was, like with his 435 page set of siege rules, he was very interested. Most of what he wrote about Tekumel is historical, cultural, and linguistic and not directly game material.

Originally Posted by Zirunel

Sometimes it seems to me, people are so obsessed with stressing the "alien" "non-western" character of Tekumel (oh look, Mayans in space!) that they downplay the huge classical Hellenistic/Imperial-Roman Mediterranean elements in the Professor's grand pastiche. It's a mashup sure, with a lot of ingredients, but much of it really isn't as "non-western" as some people pretend.

Agreed; when you start to look at Tekumel in more detail, it gets a lot easier - especially if you know a lot about the historical periods that phil really liked - Ancient Egypt and the Successor period.

Originally Posted by Neshm hiKumala

Yes. That helps a lot. Brilliant fun. Thank you for the account.

By the way, were you ever involved with "The Seal of the Imperium" journals? I think not, but I may be mistaken.
I've been told that there's actually a fourth, unpublished issue out there, one that's almost ready to go. The manuscript is probably filed away in some box somewhere, never to see the light of day.

You're welcome!

Yes, as a consultant. Everybody who has anything to do with Tekumel seems to wind up on my doorstep, asking questions like these in this thread.

Yeah, he's got another one, but the TF pulled his license and won't let him do anything.

Originally Posted by Neshm hiKumala

I feel the same.

To me, the unique languages play a big part in making the world feel more alien and bizarre than it actually is. As a mental exercise, replace the Tsolyani words and names with Western Europe sounding ones. You'll notice that things don't feel so weird anymore.

Agreed,and very true.

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

Agreed; when you start to look at Tekumel in more detail, it gets a lot easier - especially if you know a lot about the historical periods that phil really liked - Ancient Egypt and the Successor period.

True. I am about halfway into the first Lord Meren novel. Which you suggested as "flavor" for our games in the part I thread. It is really well researched(right down to the throwing sticks). Very helpful source for interactions between Nobles, Commoners and ancient life in general. Plus an entertaining story to boot.

H:0)

Originally Posted by Neshm hiKumala

I feel the same.

To me, the unique languages play a big part in making the world feel more alien and bizarre than it actually is. As a mental exercise, replace the Tsolyani words and names with Western Europe sounding ones. You'll notice that things don't feel so weird anymore.

Very good point. It really works!

Actually, I believe there may even be a few Greek (or Greek-inspired) names in Tsolyani. Nothing as well known as the Mayan Sacbe/Sakbe thing, which everyone picks up on, but I believe they are there.

Pretty sure "Sarku" was inspired by the "sarco-" element in sarcophagus. Sark- doesn't really mean corpse, it means flesh, but we all know it best as part of "sarcophagus." Sarku, sarcophagus, I don't think that's a coincidence

And there is an Aspect of Karakan named Orkutai, "The City-Destroyer." Bet he got the idea from Demetrius I "Poliorketes," "The Besieger of Cities." Demetrius was a Successor king of Macedon that the Professor would have been quite familiar with.

There may be more "western-inspired" words and names in Tsolyani if you go looking for them.

Originally Posted by Zirunel

Very good point. It really works!

Actually, I believe there may even be a few Greek (or Greek-inspired) names in Tsolyani. Nothing as well known as the Mayan Sacbe/Sakbe thing, which everyone picks up on, but I believe they are there.

Pretty sure "Sarku" was inspired by the "sarco-" element in sarcophagus. Sark- doesn't really mean corpse, it means flesh, but we all know it best as part of "sarcophagus." Sarku, sarcophagus, I don't think that's a coincidence

And there is an Aspect of Karakan named Orkutai, "The City-Destroyer." Bet he got the idea from Demetrius I "Poliorketes," "The Besieger of Cities." Demetrius was a Successor king of Macedon that the Professor would have been quite familiar with.

There may be more "western-inspired" words and names in Tsolyani if you go looking for them.

I think that these are more of Phil's "in jokes" that Chirine has talked about in the past. Another example is Znaye which is probably derived from the Slavic root word for "know" or "knowledge," and if memory serves is a secret tongue of one of the pariah gods.

Originally Posted by Shemek hiTankolel

I think that these are more of Phil's "in jokes" that Chirine has talked about in the past. Another example is Znaye which is probably derived from the Slavic root word for "know" or "knowledge," and if memory serves is a secret tongue of one of the pariah gods.

You may well be right. Questions like this, around the sausage-making of world-building are exactly the kind of questions that might have answers in the professors archives. It would be great to reconstruct his own construction of this world.

My guess (totally uninformed and quite possibly wrong) is that he came up with Sarku quite early. Maybe at a time when no one was listening, in which case early names like this maybe aren't "jokes," just real-world inspiration for world-building. Sakbe/Sacbe may be similar. Also Kheshchal.

Orkutai/Orketes, on the other hand, I suspect he came up with later, maybe when he already had an audience, including wargamers with the same historical interests as his own. I could easily believe Orkutai was an "in-joke."

The Zna'ye/znanje thing is something I remember, and maybe something different. That wasn't something that clearly came from the Professor, it was an idea that Alex Stojanavic proposed. As I recall, the Professor didn't pooh-pooh it, but he brushed it aside and moved on. That doesn't really tell you anything, and Alex Stojanavic's ideas can be very cool .

But my (again uninformed) guess is that the Professor's background in Slavic languages was extremely limited (or zero), so while the idea is cool and worth pursuing for your own Tekumel, I don't think it was ever part of the Professor's actual world-building process.

Originally Posted by Hrugga

True. I am about halfway into the first Lord Meren novel. Which you suggested as "flavor" for our games in the part I thread. It is really well researched(right down to the throwing sticks). Very helpful source for interactions between Nobles, Commoners and ancient life in general. Plus an entertaining story to boot.

H:0)

And there you are - following in Phil's footsteps. He taught himself Ancient Egyptian when he was eight, and it stayed with him all his long life. His library on the subject was simply university-class.

Follow this up with the 'Barsoom' series, and I think you'll be very pleasantly pleased.

I can only hope that I'm half that good, with my little effort...