Thread: Questioning chirine ba kal - part II

Originally Posted by Zirunel

Wow, so not a huffy screw-you reveal but a yep this is the deal reveal. In which case, how can this not be canon? At the very least it must have been the canon answer he had in mind from 74-75.

Yep, you got it!

Because, we have been assured, Tekumel must be properly interpreted for us by the correctly authorized and official people. I've been told by these same people that Phil should not be considered the final authority on how Tekumel really is, and that only they can do it.

In my personal Tekumel, that's an enormous stinking load of hooey. I use what Phil taught us, wrote about, and played with in his games. For me, that's 'canon', in all of it's bemusing, astonishing, and occasionally contradictory authority. My book about our adventures takes that position, because that's what I saw and heard in my time with one of the most astounding, confusing, and amazing people I've ever known.

Phil is the one who created Tekumel; he will always be, for me, the one who knows the most about how it works. All I can do is follow in his footsteps, and share my memories and adventures with you...

I'd like to pose a question of my own, once again, and I'd be obliged to everyone who'd like to weigh in on it...

The GM for the 5e campaign that I recent left has asked me to return, as an 'associate GM' of sorts; he and his players would like to take the opportunity to visit Tekumel for a while, and play an RPG in Ye Olden Style. As it's been explained to me, the GM will continue to handle the 5e mechanics as needed for the game sessions, and I will be running the game session in my usual style and manner.

I think the best way to describe this would be 'D & D 5e for Tekumel', with the 5e mechanics and Phil's world setting.

I have no trouble running the game; what concerns me is presentation and accessibility. 5e, as i've seen it being played by this and other groups at the FLGS, offers me effectively nothing in the kind of elements that I like to see in my gaming. It's usually a gridded battle mat with wet-erase markers and pre-painted figures as a tactical display, with none of the sheer spectacle that I love to present in my games. Also, normally, I'd bring some of my copies of EPT to the table for people to look at and get a little introduction to the world-setting, but I've been put off by some of the reactions that I've gotten by people - specifically, sniggering over the artwork. My thought is to present the players with this excerpt from Book One of "To Serve The Petal Throne" as a take-away sheet for the players:

Since before the beginnings of recorded time, humankind had looked up into the night sky at the myriad points of light and wondered. Eventually, in the fullness of that time, the first steps were taken out into that starry night. Humankind went, in a single bound, from being alone on their homeworld to being part of a galaxy-spanning community of beings of diverse shapes and sizes. Some were friendly, some were hostile, and some plainly disinterested in the doings of humans and neutral to them.

Humankind spread across the stars, and established their own empire; the Lords of Humanspace assimilated many technologies and sciences, and eventually became masters of matter and energy. This mastery brought them in to alliances and conflicts, and in one particular case brought them a contract with another of the galaxy's races; they wanted to have an entire planet adapted for their use, and this the Lords of Humanspace could do.

One of five worlds orbiting a bright, hot star, the chosen planet was at the juncture of several important trade routes between the more densely-populated areas of space; the world was wanted as a trading center and a place where the rulers of the galaxy could rest from their labors.

It was of little matter that the world was already inhabited; the Lords of Humanspace did not consider such minor things as being worthy of their notice. Mighty weapons were deployed, even mightier engines of change and transformation were brought into play, and the new world became a place where humankind and their allies could call home. The inhabitants were allowed to survive; to survive, and nurse their hatred of the alien beings who had transformed their planet and confined them to the more remote regions of it.

The Lords of Humanspace, and their allies, for all their power and mastery were not the most highly endowed races in the universe. Others, older and more alien yet, held that position, and they too had their rivalries and conflicts. To these older races, the all-powerful Lords of Humanspace were as toys to a child.

There came a time when these older races had a mighty conflict, and employed powers unimaginable to Humankind. The newly-transformed world was cast out of space and time, and the trapped peoples of the new world looked up into a sky without stars.

The high civilization that the Lords of Humanspace had brought to the new world collapsed - here, suddenly; there, slowly. Humankind is, however, nothing if not adaptable and resilient; civilization began a long, slow climb back into the light and out of the utter darkness that had befallen it. New technologies of the mind, which became known as 'sorcery', replaced the lost technology of the Ancients � as the Lords of Humanspace had become known � and empires and kingdoms rose and fell as the centuries passed into dust.

Humans and their alien allies built and strove, and created new civilizations out of the ashes of the old. Heroes and villains abounded, and new legends were born out of the tales of their battles and quests. In every generation, new heroes and heroines were born, and their legends added to the mythology and history of their world. Gods and goddesses, some based on the memories of the old races that has cast the world into darkness and some created by the mnds of their worshippers, abounded and made their presence in the world known to their worshippers and their competitors.

Some traces of the old technology survived, and became highly sought-after and coveted treasures. Some of what was left of the old world was beneficial and useful; other devices could kill at a touch. All of the inhabitants of the world understood this, and the quest for these wonders was left to a new breed of 'adventurers', who took the most horrific risks in order to obtain the most generous of rewards.

And so it begins; tales of wonder, and of people not yet born, and of lands not yet known�
Come with us; our journey is just begun�

If you were players in this situation, what would you like to see to help you understand what you've gotten your selves into?

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

As Gronan points out, the players had come to the end of the adventure path and solved the puzzle. So, the game ended. Phil was, for the rest of his life, pretty astonished that the players wanted to keep on adventuring in his creation - he thought that like most gamers, they'd want to move on to something else. They pointed out that they could play "Traveller" at the Fifth Precinct game group, but that playing Tekumel was a lot more fun and interesting. So, 'the game' became 'a campaign', and lasted for years.

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

Precisely. They then mutinied, and wanted to continue playing in Tekumel's bethorm, rather then play a "Traveller" campaign in funny hats.

Oh, so the secret was "how to bring Tekumel back into the Known Space"? Yeah, it would have presented a problem with continuing the Tekumel campaign...

Mentioning Traveller makes it doubly funny, though, because I'd started using Traveller 5 for Tekumel almost since the beginning.

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

Agreed - meddling kids! I've known how to get Tekumel 'home' since 1976, but there didn't - and still doesn't - seem to be anything in it for me. I like playing a mercenary general, thank you very much.

No doubt the Bokones Twenty would agree, Uncle! I mean, if it's not for the good of the clan, Lord Vimuhla and the Petal Throne, there's no point in it, right?

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

Yep, you got it!

Because, we have been assured, Tekumel must be properly interpreted for us by the correctly authorized and official people. I've been told by these same people that Phil should not be considered the final authority on how Tekumel really is, and that only they can do it.

In my personal Tekumel, that's an enormous stinking load of hooey.

So it is in my personal Tekumel, too. I mean, I understand deciding the author isn't the supreme authority - some would say the Referee is.
But some former friends of the late author? Nope, I can't see them having a more authoritative opinion on the setting he wrote.

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

I'd like to pose a question of my own, once again, and I'd be obliged to everyone who'd like to weigh in on it...

The GM for the 5e campaign that I recent left has asked me to return, as an 'associate GM' of sorts; he and his players would like to take the opportunity to visit Tekumel for a while, and play an RPG in Ye Olden Style. As it's been explained to me, the GM will continue to handle the 5e mechanics as needed for the game sessions, and I will be running the game session in my usual style and manner.

I think the best way to describe this would be 'D & D 5e for Tekumel', with the 5e mechanics and Phil's world setting.

I have no trouble running the game; what concerns me is presentation and accessibility. 5e, as i've seen it being played by this and other groups at the FLGS, offers me effectively nothing in the kind of elements that I like to see in my gaming. It's usually a gridded battle mat with wet-erase markers and pre-painted figures as a tactical display, with none of the sheer spectacle that I love to present in my games. Also, normally, I'd bring some of my copies of EPT to the table for people to look at and get a little introduction to the world-setting, but I've been put off by some of the reactions that I've gotten by people - specifically, sniggering over the artwork. My thought is to present the players with this excerpt from Book One of "To Serve The Petal Throne" as a take-away sheet for the players:

Since before the beginnings of recorded time, humankind had looked up into the night sky at the myriad points of light and wondered. Eventually, in the fullness of that time, the first steps were taken out into that starry night. Humankind went, in a single bound, from being alone on their homeworld to being part of a galaxy-spanning community of beings of diverse shapes and sizes. Some were friendly, some were hostile, and some plainly disinterested in the doings of humans and neutral to them.

Humankind spread across the stars, and established their own empire; the Lords of Humanspace assimilated many technologies and sciences, and eventually became masters of matter and energy. This mastery brought them in to alliances and conflicts, and in one particular case brought them a contract with another of the galaxy's races; they wanted to have an entire planet adapted for their use, and this the Lords of Humanspace could do.

One of five worlds orbiting a bright, hot star, the chosen planet was at the juncture of several important trade routes between the more densely-populated areas of space; the world was wanted as a trading center and a place where the rulers of the galaxy could rest from their labors.

It was of little matter that the world was already inhabited; the Lords of Humanspace did not consider such minor things as being worthy of their notice. Mighty weapons were deployed, even mightier engines of change and transformation were brought into play, and the new world became a place where humankind and their allies could call home. The inhabitants were allowed to survive; to survive, and nurse their hatred of the alien beings who had transformed their planet and confined them to the more remote regions of it.

The Lords of Humanspace, and their allies, for all their power and mastery were not the most highly endowed races in the universe. Others, older and more alien yet, held that position, and they too had their rivalries and conflicts. To these older races, the all-powerful Lords of Humanspace were as toys to a child.

There came a time when these older races had a mighty conflict, and employed powers unimaginable to Humankind. The newly-transformed world was cast out of space and time, and the trapped peoples of the new world looked up into a sky without stars.

The high civilization that the Lords of Humanspace had brought to the new world collapsed - here, suddenly; there, slowly. Humankind is, however, nothing if not adaptable and resilient; civilization began a long, slow climb back into the light and out of the utter darkness that had befallen it. New technologies of the mind, which became known as 'sorcery', replaced the lost technology of the Ancients � as the Lords of Humanspace had become known � and empires and kingdoms rose and fell as the centuries passed into dust.

Humans and their alien allies built and strove, and created new civilizations out of the ashes of the old. Heroes and villains abounded, and new legends were born out of the tales of their battles and quests. In every generation, new heroes and heroines were born, and their legends added to the mythology and history of their world. Gods and goddesses, some based on the memories of the old races that has cast the world into darkness and some created by the mnds of their worshippers, abounded and made their presence in the world known to their worshippers and their competitors.

Some traces of the old technology survived, and became highly sought-after and coveted treasures. Some of what was left of the old world was beneficial and useful; other devices could kill at a touch. All of the inhabitants of the world understood this, and the quest for these wonders was left to a new breed of 'adventurers', who took the most horrific risks in order to obtain the most generous of rewards.

And so it begins; tales of wonder, and of people not yet born, and of lands not yet known�
Come with us; our journey is just begun�

If you were players in this situation, what would you like to see to help you understand what you've gotten your selves into?

Well, first thing I'd do is ditching 5e mechanics! But I understand that's not much help.
I need to think a bit, but I must warn you that whatever I might recommend, would end up impacting the mechanical part, too (which, by the rules as written, basically precludes the style of Ye Olde Days).

Originally Posted by Gronan of Simmerya

Ain't it the truth.

But in the case of Warhamburger, there is a logic to it: Make the latest and greatest models strong enough to beat anything old, and price them high.

My God, how the money rolls in.

At times it really seemed like they were trying to ensure that sound tactics would never conquer chaos

Originally Posted by Baron

AsenG, kudos on running T5 in Tekumel, that sounds like a great fit! (Said the CT fan!)

Fun fact, I'm mostly a fan of T5 (and T4, by extension), MgT1/2e, and CT. Don't even ask me why, but the other Traveller variants just don't appeal to me, mechanically.
Maybe it was just the reviews, a few of which were off-putting.

However, I'd note that (it seems) the 5e GM is willing to take his group for a trip on Tekumel. They probably want to stick with 5e, from what I'd seen from the session descriptions. So it seems that the plan you suggest wouldn't be viable.


Now, Uncle, you have to talk to the GM to make sure three things are included, and that the players are aware of them, too.
First, make sure he knows, and they know, that they can't purchase magic items, and mostly can't "buy" spells. You've got to earn them, by finding them or by cooperating with an organisation that teaches them.
Second, make sure he knows that pre-made encounters aren't going to cut it. For that matter, make it clear that fights aren't going to be balanced by the players' level, unless it's the Hirilakte Arena - and even then, it's not guaranteed.
Third, explain social stratification to them, and how it works on Tekumel. It would save you lots of blood pressure spikes later, I'd bet!

Originally Posted by Greentongue

For a start ...

How much of the terraforming remains and how densely populated are humans?

How common are usable artifacts? How common and powerful is this 'sorcery'?
=

Sorry, should have been more clear. This party has visited us once before, so they have an idea of this. They want to go back for another visit, I gather, so they'll be playing in an established part of the setting.

Originally Posted by AsenRG

Oh, so the secret was "how to bring Tekumel back into the Known Space"? Yeah, it would have presented a problem with continuing the Tekumel campaign...

Mentioning Traveller makes it doubly funny, though, because I'd started using Traveller 5 for Tekumel almost since the beginning.


No doubt the Bokones Twenty would agree, Uncle! I mean, if it's not for the good of the clan, Lord Vimuhla and the Petal Throne, there's no point in it, right?


So it is in my personal Tekumel, too. I mean, I understand deciding the author isn't the supreme authority - some would say the Referee is.
But some former friends of the late author? Nope, I can't see them having a more authoritative opinion on the setting he wrote.


Well, first thing I'd do is ditching 5e mechanics! But I understand that's not much help.
I need to think a bit, but I must warn you that whatever I might recommend, would end up impacting the mechanical part, too (which, by the rules as written, basically precludes the style of Ye Olde Days).

Agreed with all your points. I'm still not sure about how tis will play out, as I have no idea how 5e works. Not going into this with a lot of confidence.

Originally Posted by Baron

AsenG, kudos on running T5 in Tekumel, that sounds like a great fit! (Said the CT fan!)

Chirine, I'll second the 'ditch 5e' sentiment. What do you need this 'co-gm' for? This bethorm looks fine to me! If there are players who want to try out your game, then invite them to your game room, and run your game, your way. If this 5e gm wants to 'use' Tekumel, let him buy Bethorm or EPT. But if you were so dissatisfied with gaming with them in the first place, why let them continue the experience? Sorry if that comes off as offensive, I'm just a vit shocked.

As to what I, as a player, would want? Well, you already have a copy of the docs I provided to my players, along with my guides for running the game. That's what I would prepare. :-)

It's his campaign, his venue, his table, and his players. The party had a good time on their previous visit to Lord Chirine and his eclectic family, and want to go back.

Not at all offended; I wasn't unhappy with any but one of the players or the GM, just with the 5e rules.

I've offered to run games in my game room, and had no takers at the FLGS. The situation locally seems to be that one either games there or at the local game conventions or does not game at all. I had the pair of game sessions back at the end of May, beginning of June, and that's been it here at the house for the past two years. I'd love to run some games; the the model that I used at Free RPG Day, of simply setting up shop at the FLGS and running an open table, seems to be the only thing that actually works.

I have been running Tekumel for some forty years, now, but I am going into this game session with a very low degree of confidence and frankly not really looking forward to it. I feel I'm doing it out of a sense of obligation, more then anything else.