Thread: Questioning chirine ba kal - part II

Originally Posted by bconsidine

I'm a "serious Tekumel fan". I seriously enjoy the setting, though I'm not "serious" about it, otherwise I wouldn't have a wandering merchant named Yabid Djabbadu. I'm not slavishly canonical, though I do try to stick to what little canon I know. And I think I'd "seriously" enjoy your book.

Blaise

I agree with you - but I'd call you a 'serious fan of Tekumel'; it's a fine semantic difference, but it's one that I've had rammed down my throat for forty years. I am, by my own estimation, a 'serious fan of Tekumel', and I've been informed by some folks - you can find them on the web - that I am most assuredly not a 'serious Tekumel fan'. See also Gronan's comments of gaming being 'serious business' at some point, and not in a commercial / business sense.

Originally Posted by Zirunel

Me too. If there Is a po-faced Tekumel setting nerd out there, it's me. But I enjoyed the early partial draft Chirine was kind enough to share with me years ago, and I very much look forward to more. I just don't see the conflict between serious Tekumel fan and fan of Chirine (or his book)

Thank you for the kind words! I don;t see the conflict either, but I've been told that I am Doing It Wrong on a number of levels. Not enough rules, not enough footnotes, not enough "Playing At The World", not short enough, not worth the time to read, not 'grimdark' enough.

So - to be blunt about it - I am not writing this for the people on the Tekumel group over on Yahoo; I'm writing it for the people over here, who seem to be a lot more Laid back and not all cranky-uptight about Getting It Right.

Originally Posted by AsenRG

I'm a "serious" Tekumel fan. I seriously like the setting, and try to preserve the core principles of the setting's societies and species as detailed in Swords and Glory, except where I decide consciously to amend them.

I also do that in a way that maximizes the opportunities to have fun.

Agreed, which is what I call a 'serious fan of Tekumel'; you are into the world-setting as a setting for your games, rather then as the subject of your doctoral thesis. One of the saddest comments about Tekumel I ever saw was Pundit's saying - in the thread about our costumes - that he didn't want to play in a setting / game where he had to take a graduate course in the thing to be able to get it right. I've been hearing that same comment for decades from people who go discover Tekumel; if I had a dollar for all the 'fans of Tekumel' who have told me that they wished that they had discovered me before they had tried the 'serious fan' stuff on the Internet; I could retire a very rich man.

It's like the comment that it would be nice if this thread could be on one of the 'official' Tekumel forums; I certainly sympathize with that feeling! I also wish that the 'official' forums could have conversations like this one, but they don't seem to be able to or to hold people's interest long enough to. I don't know why that might be; there are some really cool people on those forums, whom I've really enjoyed talking to, but it just never seems to last. I don't post on them, despite being possibly A Very Serious Fan; people just don't seem to be interested in what I am interested in.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the people here are Serious - just not in an obsessive-compulsive way. And yes, I know I'm not explaining myself very well, after forty years of trying...

Originally Posted by SwordofKas

What has been some of the coolest/most interesting things you've seen people do to "make Tekumel their own"?

Two wonderfully awesome works come instantly to mind:

"Naval Warfare On Tekumel":

https://www.dropbox.com/s/hisw0ijt03...kumel.pdf?dl=0

"A Gazetteer of Butrus and Pan Chaka":

http://www.webring.org/l/rd?ring=tek...%2Fmain%2Ehtml

This is the kind of thing that I mean when I talk about 'serious fans of Tekumel'; both authors have done a simply brilliant job of extrapolating from what Phil did in his campaign and texts and telling us about some areas of Tekumel that we knew very little about. I use both in my games - and I'm supposedly 'the greatest living expert on Tekumel'. There is some really amazing stuff out there on the web, that I think really captures the spirit of Phil's setting and game campaign. For example:

http://tekumel.skaran.net/tekumel/kilalammu.html

There's a lot more like this out there - all you have to do is spend some time on the web and you'll find it...

Originally Posted by AsenRG

Uncle, I have a request for you and the Glorious General that might require a bit of typing! But it's a thread with questions, so I might at least ask...

Can you, and possibly Glorious General Gronan, describe a small Tekumeli party you've been on? Obviously I mean a social gathering of almost-equals where alcohol and drugs are consumed - not a team of PCs.

The catch is, I'd like you to describe the NPCs with opportunities that the players might use in a conversation. They don't have to be obvious - some could be stuff they'd only know if they have made their research regarding the local notables.
It doesn't have to be an actual party you witnessed, either. As long as it's believable, I wouldn't care.

For example: high priest of Gruganu, 61, outranking almost everyone else...but only slightly. Is looking for a suitable candidate to marry his grand-daughter - obviously he (or she, if Aridani) should be a devout follower of Gruganu, and preferably one that would agree to be adopted into his clan (because he doesn't want her to go far away).
Secondary goal he doesn't mention, unless you really look like the right people: finding a middle-ranking priest who went missing 3 days ago, from a house the temple denies owning (it's used to meet all kinds of people). The priest really doesn't want to get OAL and the Imperium involved, but if he can't find the guy,and soon, he'd need to - because possible breach of Concordat.
Of course, if the PCs look like the swaggering adventurers fit for the latter mission, they're probably unfit for his first goal.

Does the example NPC sound believable? Feel free to edit him to make him more believable!

What other people would be there, drinking and taking drugs with such an illustrious character?

Okay, I'll have a go at this...

Let's see; I can give you an actual example. The Glorious General had just become a general, and was having his new officers in for a meet-and-greet. My job, as his staff officer, is to get him all the details on clan and temple for each of his guests, and to make sure that each one gets treated properly - I laid in bottles of their favorite wines, for example, and made sure that the servers knew which guest got which bottle. Same for food. So, everybody shows up, and after the introductions the food and entertainment gets going. Now, at that point is when the group starts exchanging information on who has a nephew that needs a post, who has a daughter that needs a husband, all the usual warp-and-woof of social life. Everybody is careful to stick to the social norms until they get a feel for their new general, making sure that he's a Karakan worshipper like they are and in good standing with the temple, and then moving into deeper waters like your Priest of Gruganu would. They will also, very delicately, sound out the Glorious General about who this Priest of Vimuhla hanging around might be (and shuddering when they find out - everybody's heard of what happened at Ferenara); once they find out that the guy can be trusted to keep his mouth shut, out will come the more serious business along with the after-dinner drinks.

Your priest is very believable; we had conversations like this many, many times in Phil's games. This kind of thing happens all the time at parties and gatherings, and once you feel people out with the information about the grand-daughter then you can work the conversation around to the subject of "You wouldn't happen to know where I could get some reliable and discreet people for a bit of work, would you?"

Other people would be the host/hostess, their good friends, and anyone that they wanted to impress socially or introduce socially. This is a gathering of friends, not a party at the Governor's palace. You'd have clans people, temple people, and anybody else that was a friend of the people giving the party. This is where the 'social networking' that keep the Imperium running happens, and where people locate the people that they might need for a particular job through their friends. (Mayhem, as you might guess, always ensued.)

Is this what you're looking for? Do you need more?

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

Agreed, which is what I call a 'serious fan of Tekumel'; you are into the world-setting as a setting for your games, rather then as the subject of your doctoral thesis.

Oh, I could very well write a doctoral thesis on My Tekumel, Uncle...but I also know enough about GMing that I wouldn't read it at the table, nor make it Required Reading!
Now, when the campaign is over, the players just might know most of it already. Funny how that happens, isn't it?

One of the saddest comments about Tekumel I ever saw was Pundit's saying - in the thread about our costumes - that he didn't want to play in a setting / game where he had to take a graduate course in the thing to be able to get it right. I've been hearing that same comment for decades from people who go discover Tekumel; if I had a dollar for all the 'fans of Tekumel' who have told me that they wished that they had discovered me before they had tried the 'serious fan' stuff on the Internet; I could retire a very rich man.

...sad, but probably true.
What I find unbelievable is that those same people go and read a setting with 500+ pages of text, using an additional 400+ pages of rules, and call it "light entertainment, no need for a graduate course".

If you wonder about the numbers: I mean a specific setting. Doesn't matter which one, I'm just saying that I was never able to understand the difference.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the people here are Serious - just not in an obsessive-compulsive way. And yes, I know I'm not explaining myself very well, after forty years of trying...

Yeah, the obsessive-compulsive part is probably the bane of RPGs as a whole - not just of Tekumel...

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

Okay, I'll have a go at this...

Let's see; I can give you an actual example. The Glorious General had just become a general, and was having his new officers in for a meet-and-greet. My job, as his staff officer, is to get him all the details on clan and temple for each of his guests, and to make sure that each one gets treated properly - I laid in bottles of their favorite wines, for example, and made sure that the servers knew which guest got which bottle. Same for food. So, everybody shows up, and after the introductions the food and entertainment gets going. Now, at that point is when the group starts exchanging information on who has a nephew that needs a post, who has a daughter that needs a husband, all the usual warp-and-woof of social life. Everybody is careful to stick to the social norms until they get a feel for their new general, making sure that he's a Karakan worshipper like they are and in good standing with the temple, and then moving into deeper waters like your Priest of Gruganu would. They will also, very delicately, sound out the Glorious General about who this Priest of Vimuhla hanging around might be (and shuddering when they find out - everybody's heard of what happened at Ferenara); once they find out that the guy can be trusted to keep his mouth shut, out will come the more serious business along with the after-dinner drinks.

Excellent summary, Uncle!

Your priest is very believable; we had conversations like this many, many times in Phil's games. This kind of thing happens all the time at parties and gatherings, and once you feel people out with the information about the grand-daughter then you can work the conversation around to the subject of "You wouldn't happen to know where I could get some reliable and discreet people for a bit of work, would you?"

Thank you! But of course, if it seems from the conversation that you're those "reliable and discreet people", you wouldn't be approached about the granddaughter...or am I wrong here?

Other people would be the host/hostess, their good friends, and anyone that they wanted to impress socially or introduce socially. This is a gathering of friends, not a party at the Governor's palace. You'd have clans people, temple people, and anybody else that was a friend of the people giving the party. This is where the 'social networking' that keep the Imperium running happens, and where people locate the people that they might need for a particular job through their friends. (Mayhem, as you might guess, always ensued.)

Mayhem always ensues when you add PCs and players who don't suffer by analysis paralysis, I've found.

Is this what you're looking for? Do you need more?

That's absolutely what I'm looking for, Uncle!
However, a bit more detail on the NPC interactions, if I may ask for it, Uncle? I've observed that many players have some trouble approaching the NPCs that aren't from their time and place. You mentioned something like it earlier, with the guy who got thrown out of parties...and I figure some Referees might have similar difficulties, which would make them less willing to engage Tekumel.
Can you help me to give them a primer on The Social Interaction: Tekumel Style?

So, can I suggest those five NPCs, and you tell us how to approach them? One restriction: no magic used, except as a purely social device - to impress, not to gather information, if you get my drift.

*The hostess. Respected worshiper of Avanthe, in her late 30ies. Looking to impress everyone above her own station, and show kindness towards those below...especially if they have interesting talents.
Secondary goal: to get laid (her husbands don't mind, of course, but she's not about to just pick anyone who has the looks).
=>How do you approach her?
=>How would the seduction work, assuming a PC determines she'd be available (or simply decides to push his luck and hope for the best, as many PCs do anyway)? I gather just throwing his hand over her shoulders, and pretending it's an accident, would probably backfire...but what would be the actual steps?

*The host. Worshipper of Karakan, like the Glorious General, early 50ies. Career officer, got up through the ranks from a low post, has serious networking among the lower-ranked officers (i.e.: might make any general's life a hell). He's trying to determine whether the new general can be trusted with actual secrets - the kind you don't tell OAL, because he believes there are people in OAL who are on the pay of the enemies of the Petal Throne.
Secondary goal: he wants to know how much the general would ask for to look the other way on a scheme with military acquisitions he's got going, has the back-up of several bureaucrats and scribes (who either get a share, or get paid per month).
=>How do you approach him to get the most out of this encounter?

*The hostess' daughter, recently came of age, also an Avanthe worshipper. Looking to snag a guy who's better than what her mother gets...you might say she's being competitive and out to prove herself!
Secondary: Of course, if she finds a suitable husband, now that might make her mom shut up and respect her! But marriage is a much more serious affair, and she needs a suitable one...meaning one that would help her temple career!
=>How do you approach her?
=>How do you present yourself as either desirable company for the night, or for marriage? (Apart from gaining the mother's attention first, obviously - that's an approach that's prone to backfiring).

*Local priest of Karakan. Of indeterminate middle age, part of the war-favouring faction, believes the legion of Karakan needs "live practice to avoid dulling their edge"...
Obviously dislikes the Vimuhla priest (sorry, Uncle!) Enjoys popular/populist support with his "fire and brimstone" speeches. Is beginning to become a thorn in his superiors' side.
Also, secretly and anonimously, is selling Zu'ur to households of Change worshippers (but recently expanded into other people he dislikes). On top of getting rich, he's planning to cut their supply once he's amassed enough support to present his plans. Talk about weakening your opposition!
(Maybe he secretly murdered the Gruganu priest two days ago, and is trying hard to get rid of the body - which he's "hidden in plain sight". Obviously, he wouldn't tell you that).
He's the only one who isn't looking to get laid, stoned or drunk - and would actively avoid the latter two. Think "a man with a mission"...
=>How do you act with that one? Do you approach or avoid him?

*Last on that list, an Aridani who serves in the Legion and has reached the rank corresponding to "major" mostly by skill at arms and being able to deal efficiently with sieges. Adopted in a high-ranking military clan because of those skills.
Has a reputation for judicious use of extreme violence - and for good manners when not doing that. In short, she might as well be a PC!
Due to her fair skin and eyes, her reputation includes people whispering she might really be a demon. Partly due to this, she's acting as the unofficial mascot of the legion - the soldiers argue that as long as the Demoness is on their side, their enemies should be afraid.
(The reason for the skin and eyes: she's actually an adventurer from another world - think a Conan-like world - who fell through a one-way portal and appeared in Tekumel. After a short career as a fighting slave, she bought her freedom off - not explaining where she got the money from - and promptly joined the army).
She'd like a way to get back to her homeworld with only a fraction of her Tsolyani wealth, but doesn't count on it - and is reluctant to share.
Her main interest here - apart from getting drunk, stoned or laid, because it's a social event after all - is to size up the Glorious General, and understand whether his reputation is due to him having good aides, or whether he's a genuine soldier.
=>How do you approach that one?
=>What can you get out of a good working relationship with her?


Sorry if some of those NPCs are more suited for My Tekumel, Uncle...but I hope they'd actually have an easy time fitting in the Tekumel you know best!

Originally Posted by Zirunel

My turn to say thank you for the kind words.

I still have the feeling my own interests in Tekumel lean more toward the "write a thesis about it" and "obsessive compulsive," and therefore possibly Part Of The Problem when it comes to what people see when they try to explore Tekumel online, but I dunno. Can't change where my interests lead me.

Nor should you. I can understand people telling you your book should be more this or more that. You surely have the experience to write those "other" books as well, and I'm sure those "other books" would be good reads, but at the end of they day you have to write the book that just flows naturally, the book you enjoy writing. Otherwise, the writing is a chore and the book will stall. Best thing you can do is write the book you want to write.

That said, I still have hopes of one day seeing the new edition of Qadardalikoi too!

You're welcome - it's a simply wonderful bit of scholarship and research, well-presented and very enjoyable.

They may, but your 'tone' is different; you're enjoying yourself in your work, and it really shows through.

I have indeed, which is why I am not writing those other books; they don't hold much interest for me. All I'm trying to do is give the flavor of those days, and the fun we had with Phil.

Working on it!

Originally Posted by AsenRG

Oh, I could very well write a doctoral thesis on My Tekumel, Uncle...but I also know enough about GMing that I wouldn't read it at the table, nor make it Required Reading!
Now, when the campaign is over, the players just might know most of it already. Funny how that happens, isn't it?

...sad, but probably true.
What I find unbelievable is that those same people go and read a setting with 500+ pages of text, using an additional 400+ pages of rules, and call it "light entertainment, no need for a graduate course".

If you wonder about the numbers: I mean a specific setting. Doesn't matter which one, I'm just saying that I was never able to understand the difference.

Yeah, the obsessive-compulsive part is probably the bane of RPGs as a whole - not just of Tekumel...

Mayhem always ensues when you add PCs and players who don't suffer by analysis paralysis, I've found.

Agreed with your points - get on with the game, and the fun follows - at least in my experience!

When I was first handed a copy of FATE, I nearly fainted - and people think Tekumel is complex...

From AsenRG:
Thank you! But of course, if it seems from the conversation that you're those "reliable and discreet people", you wouldn't be approached about the granddaughter...or am I wrong here?

Probably not, but you never know - the question becomes "Do we want these people in our clan and family?"

That's absolutely what I'm looking for, Uncle!
However, a bit more detail on the NPC interactions, if I may ask for it, Uncle? I've observed that many players have some trouble approaching the NPCs that aren't from their time and place. You mentioned something like it earlier, with the guy who got thrown out of parties...and I figure some Referees might have similar difficulties, which would make them less willing to engage Tekumel.
Can you help me to give them a primer on The Social Interaction: Tekumel Style?

I'll try.

So, can I suggest those five NPCs, and you tell us how to approach them? One restriction: no magic used, except as a purely social device - to impress, not to gather information, if you get my drift.

As a detail magic (sorcery, not conjuring) is done at parties very, very rarely; usually, only as performances by the magical puppets. Conjuring, on the other hand, is a popular entertainment and you hire respected professionals. It's great fun, as the sorcerers are usually completely baffled by how it's all done.

*The hostess. Respected worshiper of Avanthe, in her late 30ies. Looking to impress everyone above her own station, and show kindness towards those below...especially if they have interesting talents.
Secondary goal: to get laid (her husbands don't mind, of course, but she's not about to just pick anyone who has the looks).
=>How do you approach her?
=>How would the seduction work, assuming a PC determines she'd be available (or simply decides to push his luck and hope for the best, as many PCs do anyway)? I gather just throwing his hand over her shoulders, and pretending it's an accident, would probably backfire...but what would be the actual steps?

Causal touching, except between good friends, is not a social norm in the Five Empires. It's going to be much more in the line of verbal fencing, as each person sounds the other out over the canapes and cocktails. The opening gambit would be discussing the latest from the Temple of Avanthe - keep in mind that their temple parties and some rituals make the devotees of Dlamelish and Hryhiyal blush. The usual catch phrase - like the proverbial "What's your sign" and "Come here often", as heard in 'fern bars' - is making comments on "your devotion to your goddess' and how observant she is of the rituals of her temple. Casual and modest mention of one's own connections, clan, and such will also help.

It is assumed that one had bathed, too.

*The host. Worshipper of Karakan, like the Glorious General, early 50ies. Career officer, got up through the ranks from a low post, has serious networking among the lower-ranked officers (i.e.: might make any general's life a hell). He's trying to determine whether the new general can be trusted with actual secrets - the kind you don't tell OAL, because he believes there are people in OAL who are on the pay of the enemies of the Petal Throne.
Secondary goal: he wants to know how much the general would ask for to look the other way on a scheme with military acquisitions he's got going, has the back-up of several bureaucrats and scribes (who either get a share, or get paid per month).
=>How do you approach him to get the most out of this encounter?

Ah. Mentioning the Glorious General's reputation as a 'marching soldier' and his known bravery and prowess and how one hopes to emulate him is a good foot in the door. Mentioning that one's clan has had good relations with the General and his clan will help, too. As for the wheeling and dealing, that's considered normal practice - what the General is going to be concerned with is that it's kept down to the usual percentages and is kept on the up-and-up; cheating the General or his legion is probably going to get you a visit from that Vimuhla priest he keeps around as his aide, and everybody knows just how much of a nasty bit of work that the man who helped crush the slave revolt is. Keep it on the up-and-up, and everybody's going to be happy.

*The hostess' daughter, recently came of age, also an Avanthe worshipper. Looking to snag a guy who's better than what her mother gets...you might say she's being competitive and out to prove herself!
Secondary: Of course, if she finds a suitable husband, now that might make her mom shut up and respect her! But marriage is a much more serious affair, and she needs a suitable one...meaning one that would help her temple career!
=>How do you approach her?
=>How do you present yourself as either desirable company for the night, or for marriage? (Apart from gaining the mother's attention first, obviously - that's an approach that's prone to backfiring).

Very carefully - this girl's trouble on the hoof. Stick with temple stuff, looking interested, and be polite and personable. Move oh-so-gently away from her mother, while engaging her in conversation, and sell yourself as a decent person worthy of her attention. Her ambition will do the rest, most likely. Just be careful!

*Local priest of Karakan. Of indeterminate middle age, part of the war-favouring faction, believes the legion of Karakan needs "live practice to avoid dulling their edge"...
Obviously dislikes the Vimuhla priest (sorry, Uncle!) Enjoys popular/populist support with his "fire and brimstone" speeches. Is beginning to become a thorn in his superiors' side.
Also, secretly and anonimously, is selling Zu'ur to households of Change worshippers (but recently expanded into other people he dislikes). On top of getting rich, he's planning to cut their supply once he's amassed enough support to present his plans. Talk about weakening your opposition!
(Maybe he secretly murdered the Gruganu priest two days ago, and is trying hard to get rid of the body - which he's "hidden in plain sight". Obviously, he wouldn't tell you that).
He's the only one who isn't looking to get laid, stoned or drunk - and would actively avoid the latter two. Think "a man with a mission"...
=>How do you act with that one? Do you approach or avoid him?

Once you find out his attitude, be polite and stay out of any conversations he's in; sooner or later, he's going to mouth off about all this in front of the General, who will shut him up with a few well-chosen and very cutting remarks. He's going to lose a lot of face, as a result, and probably not get invited back here. If he lips off about Chirine to the General, he's toast; while Chirine will smile and be polite if insulted, the General will pointedly remark on how his aide is a friend of Prince Eselne and of the Temple of Karakan. It will not help the guy's career prospects; the host/hostess and the General will get him transferred to the front, in a nice post with an active legion.

And, if he shoots his mouth off too much, he's going to attract Chirine's attention, and the latter will start quietly asking around about this guy. He's going to protect his general and his legion, and this guy may be trouble. And Chirine is very good at dealing with trouble so his general can get on with winning the war.

*Last on that list, an Aridani who serves in the Legion and has reached the rank corresponding to "major" mostly by skill at arms and being able to deal efficiently with sieges. Adopted in a high-ranking military clan because of those skills.
Has a reputation for judicious use of extreme violence - and for good manners when not doing that. In short, she might as well be a PC!
Due to her fair skin and eyes, her reputation includes people whispering she might really be a demon. Partly due to this, she's acting as the unofficial mascot of the legion - the soldiers argue that as long as the Demoness is on their side, their enemies should be afraid.
(The reason for the skin and eyes: she's actually an adventurer from another world - think a Conan-like world - who fell through a one-way portal and appeared in Tekumel. After a short career as a fighting slave, she bought her freedom off - not explaining where she got the money from - and promptly joined the army).
She'd like a way to get back to her homeworld with only a fraction of her Tsolyani wealth, but doesn't count on it - and is reluctant to share.
Her main interest here - apart from getting drunk, stoned or laid, because it's a social event after all - is to size up the Glorious General, and understand whether his reputation is due to him having good aides, or whether he's a genuine soldier.
=>How do you approach that one?
=>What can you get out of a good working relationship with her?

The General and his officers are going to like her, and he and Chirine will approach her with an offer to be on the General's staff; since she's a Molkar all ready, the senior Kasi will get her post and everybody is happy 'cause they move up a step in seniority - and some new guy, most likely a cousin, will get a commission. She's going to be a very popular officer, I think.

Nobody's going to care where she came from, as she's going to be taken for a foreigner / mercenary - which the General himself was, at one point. She and the General are going to have a great time trading war stories and exchanging "Do You Know?" information. Chirine will cover his general's flanks by relating some good stories about just how good the General is, and that huge gold thing on his chest is going to have a lot to say as well. Looking forward to serving with her!

Sorry if some of those NPCs are more suited for My Tekumel, Uncle...but I hope they'd actually have an easy time fitting in the Tekumel you know best!

No - all of these people, even your Aridani, could have been lifted straight from Phil's 1500 NPC cards. They're fine, and very good.